Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
That is the most refreshing sentence I've read in a long time. Makes for a great discussion!
The urban legend of the "He 277" being a "cover designation". It REALLY existed!
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That is the most refreshing sentence I've read in a long time. Makes for a great discussion!
Propellorhead
Airman 1st Class
It is very easy to screw up Njaco and then take it too personally when someone tries to correct you. Nobody has a monopoly on the facts about WW2. Just when you think you know it all someone pops up and says ahem scuse me but you're wrong
It would for example not surprise me if He-177B NN+QQ became GA+QQ.
The problem is that sources which I have read say NN+QQ was the V101 and GA+QQ was V102. If anybody knows differently then I would appreciate being corrected.
It also makes sense to me that if one of these four prototypes was based on the shorter fuselage He-177 A-0 model and others on the longer fuselage A-3 or A-5 model then it would be the longer fuselage examples converted by fitting of a twin finned tail (a la Ju-290 style)
This then would imply that the He-177B prototype left with a conventional tail would logically be the short fuselage He-177 A-0 example and that would be the aircraft at Cheb. I just noticed incidentally that a Czech commentator on the website with photos of the He-177B burned out at Cheb claims it was deliberately torched by the germans to prevent capture and was not the victim of an Allied air raids.
Suffice to say the last chapter is not written and one should tread carefully before asserting beliefs as facts.
I am pretty confident that the four He-177B identities are NN+QQ; NE+OD; KM+TL DL+AT. Whether I have matched their V numbers correctly is open to debate. I am interested to hear if one of those stkz is wrong and am genuinely interested to hear what information that is based upon.
I trawled through the LEMB database before it went offline and then cross referenced those which I could identify with other claims elsewhere. Even the LEMB sources contain disputed identities.
There are also fairly persistent claims that sixteen airframes were converted to He-277 standard and that only eight flew. Those known converted to He-277 adopted GA+** stkz and appear on charge with E-2 Reichlin. There are also claims that seven He-177 A6 prototypes were completed as He-277, but sparse details. Any abandoned A6 prototypes built would likely also be in posession of Reichlin in 1944.
I would not rule anything out.
KM+UE was Heinkel He177 A-5 W.Nr.550055 alloted to Ernst Heinkel AG (source B0163) so it is not improbable. The aircraft was some sort of company development airframe.
POST SCRIPT:
Heinkel werke sud at Schwechat, Vienna was bombed twice in 1944. The first time on 23 April 1944 only caused some damage to the assembly shop, two workshops and hangers. The result of this raid was inconclusive. Tooling may have been evacuated Reichlin after the first bombing raid.
The second raid of 26 June 1944 was more severe. It damaged four hangers, main assembly shops, a large workshop, an office block and barracks.
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Propellorhead
Airman 1st Class
Six He-177 A-6/R1 and one He-177 A-6/R2 were completed as He-277 B-5 aircraft with 1,900hp DB 603G at E-Stelle 2 Reichlin as far as I can tell.
A large number of long range Heinkel bombers were reported by a New York Times correspondent at a "secret" air base near Oslo. This base was Gardermoen built by the SS with Russian POW labour in a secluded forest area. Aircraft found at the airfield in June 1945 were cut up, possibly by 21 Army Group Royal Engineers and then railed to Horten where LST-519 dumped them at sea.
The A-6/R1 had the forward part of it's bomb bay converted to a fuel tank, with an external bomb rack for a single large 2,500 kilogram bomb.
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Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
One of my sources also stated that the 277 at Cheb was blown up by the Germans rather than an allied raid.
usually with some derogatory comments about one's intelligence!
usually with some derogatory comments about one's intelligence!
Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
Attachments
Crimea_River
Marshal
Thanks for posting Chris. Interesting shots, some of which (the He 219 ones) were discussed over at LEMB.
GregP
Major
Most of the books I have that address the he 177B / He 277 say the He 177B's were built and flew, the He 277 was not built and never flew. They were written in the 1950's and 1960's by people like William Green and his contemporaries.
Almost everything I have read says the 4-engine variant was, by far, the better aircraft and should have been built in lieu of the "flaming coffin."
Though the he 177 had a bad rep, it DID have some combat success, and had low loss rates when it was functioning correctly.
Almost everything I have read says the 4-engine variant was, by far, the better aircraft and should have been built in lieu of the "flaming coffin."
Though the he 177 had a bad rep, it DID have some combat success, and had low loss rates when it was functioning correctly.
GregP
Major
I started looking around, and this seriously looks like a pic of a 4-engine variant of the He-177 tribe complete with twin tails.
View attachment 179485
It is captioned as an He-277 ... Maybe we could get a comment from The PIPE.
Oops! When I read the entire thread, I see this pic has laready been posted.
Sorry, beat me, make me feel cheap ... or hit me with The PIPE.
View attachment 179485
It is captioned as an He-277 ... Maybe we could get a comment from The PIPE.
Oops! When I read the entire thread, I see this pic has laready been posted.
Sorry, beat me, make me feel cheap ... or hit me with The PIPE.
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Propellorhead
Airman 1st Class
The photo there is of the French built He-274 with it's wingtips shortened by photoshopping. This aircraft type was abandoned by Heinkel because it was too different from the He-177 and the aim was to produce the He-277 quickly.
Many aspects such as the pressurised cockpit migrated to the He-177 A-6 and A-7 designs. Not surprisingly therefore the He-177 A-6 was chosen for the first airframes to convert into the true He-277B with end plate tail fins.
some more photoshop of the french aircraft:
Another view of He-177B NE+OD
Many aspects such as the pressurised cockpit migrated to the He-177 A-6 and A-7 designs. Not surprisingly therefore the He-177 A-6 was chosen for the first airframes to convert into the true He-277B with end plate tail fins.
some more photoshop of the french aircraft:
Another view of He-177B NE+OD
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GregP
Major
Willian Green's books in the 1960 have pics of the individually-engined aircraft and it was described as a viable aircraft, but didn;t make production.
I believe he did state that the He 277 never flew, but the prototypes of it did, as did the He 274.
I thought three flew but am not surprised to hear that four flew. I'll wait and see it written and documented somewhere else, though.
I believe he did state that the He 277 never flew, but the prototypes of it did, as did the He 274.
I thought three flew but am not surprised to hear that four flew. I'll wait and see it written and documented somewhere else, though.
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Vahe Demirjian
Banned
According to a post from Axis History Forum:
"Purported "He 277V9" (only a trio of He 277 prototypes were ever called for by the RLM in the first place, expected to be completed by May/June 1943 timeframe) was actually the aforementioned He 177 V103...mention of requested trio of prototypes [and ten further A-0 service test airframes, also never-built] for 8-277 category airframes mentioned on Griehl/Dressel book's pg.104.
Purported "He 277V10" was actually the He 177 V10, WkNr 00 0024, StmKz GA+QR, started out as the He 177A-09 service test series airframe, used for testing of the He 177A-4's high altitude pressurized cockpit, remained with DB 606 "welded-together engines" for power, last metioned on June 20, 1944, stated as "cannibalized" for parts. The He 177 V11 airframe, otherwise identical to the V10 but with s/n of 00 0025 and StmKz code of GA+QS, was used for flying the A-4 format pressurized test cockpit to 9.2 km altitude on August 9, 1943. (G/D ISBN 1-85310-364-0 pg. 179)
Purported "He 277V26" was actually the He 177A-04 service test airframe, WkNr 00 0019, StmKz GA+QM, remained with DB 606 "welded-together engines" for power, last officially mentioned on April 24, 1943 with the prototype designation V26 at Rechlin with "improved aerial torpedo installation", victim of aircrash. (G/D ISBN 1-85310-364-0 pgs. 226 & 232)
Purported "He 277V18" was actually the He 177A-015 service test airframe, WkNr 00 0030, StmKz GA+QX, last mentioned on June 28, 1943 as the He 177 V18 prototype airframe for the He 177A-1/U2 Zerstörer version, using twin MK 101 30mm flexible-mount autocannon at front of dramatically forward-extended Bola for anti-ship/close support attack, solely powered with DB 606 "welded-together engines", fate otherwise unknown past last official mention. (G/D ISBN 1-85310-364-0 pg. 110)"
Literally speaking, given that the He 277 was never built, whoever claimed that 26 He 277s were built overlooked the fact that GA+QR, GA+QM, and GA+QX were actually He 177 airframes WkNr 00 0024, 00 0019, and 00 0030 respectively, and had nothing to do with the He 177B or He 277.
Crimea_River
Marshal
Ah, The PIPE!
Vahe Demirjian
Banned
The Nevington War Museum website has a photo of an He 177 (below) that it labels as He 177 V9. However, I just got a copy of Manfred Griehl and Joachim Dressel's 1998 book about the Heinkel He 177 and page 51 of that book identifies it as the He 177A-0 airframe GA+QM. The Heinkel He 177 V9 (block code GA+QQ; the only preproduction He 177 to receive a Versuchs [experimental] number that was earmarked for conversion to an He 177B) is illustrated at the top of page 57 of Griehl and Dressel's book.
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MiTasol
2nd Lieutenant
Yes I know I am ten years behind times but the above quotes sum up the attitudes of the best posters on this forum
Vahe Demirjian
Banned
In the second picture, the designs of the true He 277 (the one that had a bigger wingspan than the He 177B, He 177A-7, or He 177B-7) are labeled with the fictitious designation "He 277B-6". However, because the He 277 was not built, the "He 277B-6" designation was probably a typo made up by William Green in his book Warplanes of the Third Reich (a copy of which I recently read at the library in the Western Museum of Flight) due to the fact that the He 277 had the same fuselage cockpit nose design as the He 177A-6/R2 and Bristol Blenheim. Anthony Kay's 1972 book on German WW2 aircraft (revised edition 2002) repeats the misinformation about the He 277 and He 177B, including referring to the He 277 as "He 277B-6" and He 177B-7 as "He 277B-7".
Vahe Demirjian
Banned
I think the title of this thread ought to be changed to "He 177B and He 277" because it's clear that the He 277 was a different plane than the He 177B, given that the He 177B was assigned much later than He 277 (see https://forum.axishistory.com/download/file.php?id=354930&mode=view).
Or maybe we don't bring decades old threads back from the dead?
A new thread would have sufficed?
Does he ever reply, or is it one or two sentences after a deep archival dig and then on to the next shiny object?
He has not responded to anything I have said to him. I don't think he responds to anyone.
Most of his posts when he resurrects the dead are links to Wikipedia...
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
I think I can hear Grieg's Peer Gynt playing in the background, feintly echoing off the mountains and fjords .....................
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