The urban legend of the "He 277" being a "cover designation". It REALLY existed! (1 Viewer)

Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules

some more pics I found at Luftarchiv......
 

Attachments

  • he277_1.jpg
    he277_1.jpg
    19.4 KB · Views: 420
  • he277.jpg
    he277.jpg
    23.2 KB · Views: 1,089
It's IN that book, one of the most recently authored and RESEARCHED volumes on an otherwise enigmatic aircraft, that the whole story of one (of three) of the 'individually" four-engined developments of the 177A, the "He 277" design, as having the "cover designation" of "He 177B", was totally blown apart by research, and supported by Heinkel factory documents, as evidence as nothing more than what is called today, an "urban legend"....

That effort was getting Rousseau's original thread a bit sidetracked, so I thought it would be best to revisit that whole issue of the He 277 NEVER having actually been completed, at ANY time, versus the four He 177B prorotypes actually being built, with three of them flying, in a thread of its own.

There seems to be reasonable grounds to suggest at least 26 individual He-277 aircraft were built and flown from December 1943 when the first He-277 took flight and 2 July 1944 when all bomber production was stopped. Here are some of the registrations and constructor numbers which I have identified:

GA+QQ Heinkel He277 V9
GA+QR Heinkel He277 V10
GA+QM Heinkel He277 V26
GA+QX Heinkel He277 V18
GA+QQ Heinkel He277 V9


Pehaps one should also read the book "Cheb Wings" by James W. Hill and L. Matějíček ?
There are several photos of He-177 aircraft destroyed on the ground at Cheb in Czechoslovakia 1945.

http://www.fronta.cz/foto/trosky-he-177-1

Google Translate
 
Last edited:
Can I ask a different question.

How widely was it thought that the He 277 did not exist and was just a cover designation? This is something I was completely unaware of. However the OP seems to be quite excited to be making this announcement.??

My thoughts exactly..was never a secret in any of the books I've read.
 
Adding to the list of identified He-277 Stamkennzeichen are as follows:

1. NN+QQ W.Nr.535550
2. GA+QQ former He177 A-08 W.Nr.23
3. NE+OD ( pictured in this thread )
4. GA+QQ Heinkel He277 V9
5. GA+QR Heinkel He277 V10
6. GA+QM Heinkel He277 V26
7. GA+QX Heinkel He277 V18

(correction 7 airframes)

Prototypes seem to have the factory codes commencing with "N"
 
Last edited:
My own opinion is that the history of many Heinkel aircraft is so clouded by competing opinions, personal antagonism between Heinkel and the RLM, and deliberate propaganda (outright lying) by Heinkel's contemporary supporters and opponents that the absolute truth behind the He-177B/He 277 conundrum will never be known. I suspect there is a degree of truth in both main stories about the origin and nature of the "He-277".

I find the pictures of the burnt out He177B's/He277s interesting in that they show four bladed propellors, not the three bladed units sported by the supposed He 177B/He277 v1 prototype. This at least proves other prototypes were in fact built, but that they had not switched to the twin endplate tail assembly that was supposedly planned for the He-277.

Regarding the broader question of German heavy bombers, the Me-264 would never have been ready for operational use by 1945, and the Ju-290 was not be a true heavy bomber in the B-17/Lancaster mold. Also, given the pressing need for interceptors in the west and ground attack planes in the east, I doubt the German aircraft industry would have been able to produce more than token numbers of He-177Bs or any other long-range heavy bomber stemming from the "Bomber A" specifications. These planes would have been excellent substitutes for the basically unsuitable Fw200 in the maritime recon and attack role, and might have some utility in mounting a strategic campaign against Soviet factories in the Ural area, but in the absence of a long-range escort fighter, they would have suffered serious losses and would not have substantially altered the outcome of the war in either the west or the east.
 
I suspect there is a degree of truth in both main stories about the origin and nature of the "He-277".

and that right there is probably the best answer of it all.

My feeling is that if its a coupled 4 engine its a 177 - if 4 seperate engines, a 277. Along the lines of the Ju 88, Ju 188, Ju 288, etc..... There were significant changes within the basic airframe that modified the look and performance of the machine. Now if Heinkel had to play around secretly with the name at the beginning, so be it. There eventually was a 277 made.

But the bigger question - why all the fuss? You say toemato, I say twomato.........
 
I would be interested in knowing if any of the supposedly definitive "He-277B" production models with the twin enplates and improved defensive armament were made. Green, in his Warplanes of the 3rd Reich, states that a handful of these were completed after formal approval of the He-177B/He-277 program was issued but apparently not flown and scrapped shortly thereafter. This is, however, an old book and a lot of newer research has been done. Having now seen the pictures of the demolished He-277s/He-177Bs in LuftArchiv and that Czech site, I now wonder if those are the aircraft Green referred to - basically nothing more than re-engined He-177s
 
I have learned the second He-277 prototype was converted from the eighth He 177 A-0 production prototype aircraft designated V102. This aircraft also had the split H tail of the He-274. The eighth He-177 A-0, I just discovered was GA+QQ Heinkel He177 A-08 W.Nr.23

W.Nr.23 was being converted to He-177 A-05 v9 stkz DL+AT (source "B0163" Griehl Dressel, cited Airlife, 1998 ) so this was the H tail prototype of the He-277.

First prototype therefopre was NN+QQ W.Nr.535550. Third prototype was NE+OD

I think I should withdraw from suggesting that the He-277 V26 suggests as many as 26 were built since there's no facts to corroborate this. It does suggest however that possibly 26 were in the proceess of being re-manufactured from older He-177 aircraft. There are however persistent suggestions that eight He-277 were built and flown.

All the previously mentioned He-277,
GA+QR Heinkel He277 V10
GA+QM Heinkel He277 V26
GA+QX Heinkel He277 V18
GA+QQ Heinkel He277 V9

Were however on charge with E-stelle or the research facility Reichlin which means they had flown from the Heinkel works at Vienna.
 
I've long had an interest in the He 177/277 aircraft and through that also the He 274.

I have the Heinkel He177,277,274 book by Manfred Griehl Joachm Dressel and it's an interesting read.

The story I can't seem to find much about is the French experience with the 2 x He 274s they had after the war
(they called it the AAS 01a, I believe).

I know the work was contracted to the French and work progressed incredibly slowly so that the 2 prototypes were immobile unready before France was evacuated by Germany in 1944.
I might be mistaken but I also seem to recall an attempt to destroy the planes was badly carried out (explosives in around the engines?).

My understanding is the French repaired finished this impressive big 4 engined bomber (Bill Gunston referred to it as "probably the most advanced bomber built in Europe in WW2").
I gather they flew it until the early 1950s - and their experience with it included using the turbo-charged DB603 TK engines it was intended to use had it seen LW service.

Various high altitude research is mentioned testing involving it the Aerocentre NC270 the Sud-Ouest SO 4000.

That's about all I can come up with excepting the occasional brief mentions in general LW aircraft books on the subject of the He 177/277 (and the 277 isn't exactly a plane with a lot of data available either), none of which gives any performance data or any outline of the actual years of the French experience with this beasty.

I was just wondering if anyone has a decent English language source on this part of the aircraft's history?
 
Since writing my previous posts I have delved more deeply into Stamkennzeichen records and came to realise that the He-177 B was created by RLM previous to Hitler approving the He-277 designation in August 1943. Before this the He-277 was known as the He-177 A8 type.

he277.jpg

Photo of He-177B stkz NE+OD

Most people assume He-177 B was the He-277 aircraft under a different designation but it appears to have been an entirely different aircraft type. The He-177 B designation was issued by RLM in November 1938 and thus co-existed with the later He-177 A8 designation.

As far as I can determine, the relaevant four He-177B aircraft were NN+QQ (V101); NE+OD (V102); KM+TL (V103); DL+AT (V104).

Of these, KM+TL and DL+AT at some point had also previously been He-177 A-5 aircraft. DL+AT began it's career as the He-177 A-04. NN+QQ was found at Cheb airfield in May 1945 with the cockpit and mid fuselage burned out, but fitted with four Jumo 222A engines. This engine had a very limited production run in late 1942 which suggests the V-101 may have been converted to He-177 B-0 standard late in 1942.

The following is simply a photo-shopped image of what the He-277 would have looked like.

He277_B5.jpg


RLM's He-177 A8 designation was changed to He-277 in August 1943. At least three of the He-177 B aircraft were then apparently converted to He-277 standard with new tail empennages. The tail empennage with it's anhedral strongly resembles that of the Ju-290. If so it suggests Heinkel may have created something like a quick conversion kit for the He-177 A-5 model.

DL+AT subsequent to He-277 conversion was given stkz GA+QM and designated V26, in other words prototype number 26.

Subsequent to He-277 conversion NE+OD became stkz GA+QQ therefore it seems to me that the He-277 was slightly more than an urban myth.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the heads up on the 'Heinkel He 177 Greif' book by J. Richard Smith Eddie J. Creek.
Lots of new material for me to see. :)

Njaco

That image appears in the book and is identified as He 177 V101 (which is NE+OD? W. number 5550) at Cheb in Czechoslavakia fitted with 4 x Jumo 222 driving 4 bladed props (which must have made it, assuming they worked as planned, a heck of a performer).

They mention an He 177 V102 (GA+QQ; W. number 0023) and 2 other B series prototypes.
He 177 V103 (KM+TL W. number 500036 ) and He 177 V104 (KM+UE W. number 550055)
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the heads up on the 'Heinkel He 177 Greif' book by J. Richard Smith Eddie J. Creek.
Lots of new material for me to see. :)

Njaco

That image appears in the book and is identified as He 177 V101 (which is NE+OD? W. number 5550) at Cheb in Czechoslavakia fitted with 4 x Jumo 222 driving 4 bladed props (which must have made it, assuming they worked as planned, a heck of a performer).

They mention an He 177 V102 (GA+QQ; W. number 0023) and 2 other B series prototypes.
He 177 V103 (KM+TL W. number 500036 ) and He 177 V104 (KM+UE W. number 550055)

The burned out aircraft at Cheb was V101 which according to my research is NN+QQ. However just to make it more confusing V102 (former He-177 A-08 ) appears to have gained the stkz GA+QQ as a prototype for the He277. Join the confusion.

I'm open to being corrected, as even the best informed sources get confused, or wrongly interpret conflicting sources. The aircraft however most often cited as the first prototype He-277 appears to be NN+QQ cited as W.Nr.535550.

LEMB had the best compiled list of He-177 stammkenzeichen (stkz) codes however this appears to have gone offline now. That data base compiled data from multiple sources and contributors. Where information conflicted it identified whom the sources were. A werke number in the 535*** range means the airframe was converted from an aircraft originally built as an A-5. There were two He-277 prototypes built from A-5, one from an A-3 and another from an A-0 series, however some of these had also apparently been rebuilt from early A-0 air-frames.

He-177 fuselages were mostly built at the Arado works at Wittemberg which was bombed in late June 1944. He-177 wings were built at Oranienberg, Germandorf, using 7000 forced labourers from Sachsenhausen. The plant was bombed 18 April 1944. Wings were also built at Rathenow.

The He-277 almost certainly used the same basic wing as the He-177 A7 and the pressurised cockpit from the He-177 A6. It appears to me, although I can't prove it that the twin finned tail came from the Junkers Ju-290 and possibly the Letov plant near Prague.

There are claims that at least six prototype He-177 A6/R1 aicraft and one He-177 A6/R2 aircraft were completed at the Reichlin production facility as He-277. This production facility was extensively bombed in August 1944.

According to LEMB's database GA+QQ was former He177 A-08. An early pre-production aircraft likely built by Arado.

Heinkel_277B5.jpg


Photoshopped impression of He-277 in flight

The most famous nose on photo of an He-177B sitting on a foggy airfield is that of NE+OD. Many people Gixxerman who have not seen the side on photo as you clearly have claim online that it is a photo of NN+QQ. I suspect that is how confusion is arising about the identity of V101 and V102.

I had not heard of KM+UE being V104 before and am interested where the source is if you know please?
LEMB's database refers through sources to DL+AT. Was DL+AT a prior identity for KM+UE ?

The so called He-177B prototypes may in fact have been the four pre-production prototypes for the He-177H built at Rostock Marienehe. These were built as pre production prototypes for the two prototype He-274 which the Farman brothers were developing for Heinkel. Following the conference between Hitler and aircraft manufacturers at Obersalzberg on 23 May 1943, orders were placed to equip these four pre-production aircraft with 1,900hp DB 603G engines.

My suspicion is that they were begun as He-177B, or He-177H prototypes, but completed as He-277 (or not completed as the case may be for the Cheb example)

http://www.fronta.cz/foto/trosky-he-177-1#comment_result
 
Last edited:
... with 4 x Jumo 222 driving 4 bladed props (which must have made it, assuming they worked as planned, a heck of a performer).

The Jumo 222 had a massive power to weight ratio. Unfortunately due to poor fuel grades it had to be run at high RPM which made it prone to overheating and breakdowns. It was six Vee blocks bolted together around a common crankshaft, which caused huge plumbing problems and made supercharging it an unsolvable nightmare.

Various approaches to supercharging it were tried and failed including trying to get the Jumo 222B to run at lower RPM. Production halted in 1943 with Allied bombing of the production facility. But research engines were still built trying to resolve supercharging it.

The DB 603G and Jumo 213E (of Kurt Tank's Ta-152 Dora), or 213F were later proposed for the He277.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back