I've been hunting since I was 14, poaching in any form pisses me off and should be punished accordingly. While i've seen some videos of what Asians do to dogs(makes me sick), I also understand it's their culture, until that changes dogs will be part of the food chain. I had a very good friend who owned a Chinese restaurant back in NYC which was excellent by the way and we would have plenty of conversations about food and what's eaten where. Here in this country we tend to humanize animals especially dogs. As for farm life my uncle in Poland drowned 1/2 dozen puppies because well there would be too many of them running around so he did what he had to do.
Try telling me that they don't know
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My mothers first job on a farm as a 14 yr old was to drown a litter of kittens in a sack, same reason, too many cats on the farm. Chinese pet dogs are invariably small, they dont eat much and have no meat. I think in China dogs are seen as a nuisance they dont seem to have the farm culture of sheep dogs hunting dogs and terriers. Most breeds were originally bred for some form of activity to do with farming or hunting I dont know if a farm dog would work quite so well if it saw you kill and eat its mother.
mikewint
Captain
pbehn - anthropomorphism is so ingrained in western culture that it comes out without conscious thought, i.e., dogs to not "know'/"recognise" family (human term) members. Dogs will willing mate with mothers/sisters/grandmothers (all human terms). Bitches (correct dog term) will eat their young in some cases and dogs will kill and eat other dogs.
bobbysocks
Chief Master Sergeant
but dogs are also a "pack" animal that has a social and community nature. they have a crude form of government run by the alphas ( both male and female ) and have coups from time to time to change leadership. they also possess ( most of them anyways ) enough of an intellect that allows them to be trained to carry out jobs and tasks independent of human supervision.
mikewint
Captain
Bobby, all very true and it is those traits that made possible the domesticfication of some of the canine species. Wolves are not domesticated and would not allow themselves to be treated as are the Asian dogs that are used for meat. Herd/social animals cows/sheep/pigs/etc. or those that flock are and have been domesticated by man and again it is those herding/flocking traits that have made possible domesticfication.
It is when we get Disneyfied that be start giving animals human motivation. Dogs are born and cared for by the female. For a time pups and their mother have a bond but as they grow that bond dissolves and a year later neither recognises the other or remembers the bond. A male will mate with ANY female in season, it's not love and they don't listen to violin music or share a spaghetti dinner.
It is when we get Disneyfied that be start giving animals human motivation. Dogs are born and cared for by the female. For a time pups and their mother have a bond but as they grow that bond dissolves and a year later neither recognises the other or remembers the bond. A male will mate with ANY female in season, it's not love and they don't listen to violin music or share a spaghetti dinner.
Good points mike BUT.
I am sure dogs do recognise their close family especially their mother purely by scent even for humans a smell is unforgettable and dogs sense of smell is incredible.
The case I stated about sheepdogs was specifically about sheepdogs (border collie) Farmers use these and breed them, the young stay with their mother until old enough to start working with sheep which they pick up from watching their mother and sometimes their father. An old farmer here may have a dog descended through many generations from a dog he knew as a child. They are not pets and do not come in the house.
I would point out the following.
Humans will naturally arrange things with social mores and traditions religions and laws so that close relatives do not have children until money and power take over. The Pharoes used a religious belief about pure blood that resulted in fathers marrying daughters and brothers marrying sisters and half sisters.
Henry the eighth, when he split from Rome decreed that marrying a cousin was legal, it is clearly dangerous from an inbreeding point of view but wealth and power over ride that. Darwin was surprised that Australian indigenous people had very complex and strict rules about marriage to prevent in breeding. Why was he surprised? The stupid outrage about Cecil the lions babies being eaten is the lions system to prevent in breeding. Young males are expelled from the pride, they must spend several years becoming big and strong enough to form a pride of their own. In the natural way of things a male lion is head of a pride for a few years and then displaced. Shooting the head of a pride screws everything up.
Humans do kill other humans at a much higher rate than wild dogs.
Humans will have sex with close relatives that is why it is against the law all over the world. If you take a child from its parents at 2 years old it would have sex with a sibling, The difference in ages between a mother and a sexually mature son is so great that it wouldnt normally happen but it could, giving ourselves names which identify our parents is a way to prevent it.
Humans invest many years in a childs development, even so many children are killed by parents.
Where family estates are involved children will kill siblings or parents to get their hands on the money. If (as in the dog world) murder wasnt illegal and you couldnt profit from killing a parent then I think humans would be like lions and kick their children out before adolescence.
This is not new, Richard 1st (the Lionheart) first war was with his father in a time when leaders did die in battle. Queen Elizabeth 1st had her half sister beheaded. to maintain power and she didnt have any children.
- Thread starter
- #27
at6
1st Sergeant
Which proves that dogs are more human than we thought.8)
mikewint
Captain
pbhen, dogs undergo a process known as imprinting. A dog's long-term memory is not like a human's. Dog memory depends more on imprinting, a biochemical process stimulated by sight and smell. Imprinting is an innate behavior or response to a learned stimulus and occurs at a particular time in an animal's life. Pups will begin to imprint at about 3 weeks. They learn dog social behavior, i.e. Pack behaviors such as how to interact with litter mates and adult dogs. Too much human contact will imprint the dog on you and it will never learn how to interact with other dogs or humans treating them as unfamiliar threats. About 7 weeks is a good time to introduce varied human contact as well as other species of animals. About 8 weeks is the trauma imprint time. Any painful, stressful or fearful experience dur this time can induce a lifelong phobia.
Now pets tend to be separated and sold at about 12 weeks by good breeders. Puppy mills tend to grab pups as soon as they are weaned 8 weeks or so.
Wolf puppies remain with the family pack for one to three years, well into adulthood, so it was natural to maintain PACK ties. In the wild, keeping the PACK together served as protection for all members. Thus a pup is imprinted on his/her dam NOT as a mother (human term) but as a member of his or her PACK.
When Breena was alive she saw her sister often because she lives only three miles away and to the day she died Breena ignored her completely. When they were litter mates Breena was the dominant one but she ignored her brother and sister whenever she saw them. And we ran in to the guy who had Breena's father and mother about two years ago and Breena was extremely aggressive towards her mother and completely ignored her father.
Consider that the dam imprinted upon a PUPPY which has now been removed to a totally different environment wherein all things changed including the body of the pup.
At 16 would you remember a mother that been removed and gone for 14 years?
Now pets tend to be separated and sold at about 12 weeks by good breeders. Puppy mills tend to grab pups as soon as they are weaned 8 weeks or so.
Wolf puppies remain with the family pack for one to three years, well into adulthood, so it was natural to maintain PACK ties. In the wild, keeping the PACK together served as protection for all members. Thus a pup is imprinted on his/her dam NOT as a mother (human term) but as a member of his or her PACK.
When Breena was alive she saw her sister often because she lives only three miles away and to the day she died Breena ignored her completely. When they were litter mates Breena was the dominant one but she ignored her brother and sister whenever she saw them. And we ran in to the guy who had Breena's father and mother about two years ago and Breena was extremely aggressive towards her mother and completely ignored her father.
Consider that the dam imprinted upon a PUPPY which has now been removed to a totally different environment wherein all things changed including the body of the pup.
At 16 would you remember a mother that been removed and gone for 14 years?
I accept your points about disneyfication of wild life but lets not pretend we are not animals ourselves. You can only compare a baby human to a dog puppy so far, in fact a human baby has more in common with a kangaroo "joey". A human cannot feed itself move itself let alone actually find food or look after itself for years.
A human baby does not imprint or bond with its mother it imprint and bonds with the person that feeds it. After weaning and learning language it regards the person looking after it to be the person they tell them they are. Years ago child birth was the biggest killer of women so there were a lot of orphans, orphans were raised by their close family as their own usually an aunt sometimes the grandmother or a cousin. The wealthy and those unable to breast feed used wet nurses but wet nurses were never the "mother" in the eyes of the baby, they simply dont remember.
A mother only bonds by sight with her baby, there have been so many cases of screw ups in maternity wards which means all babies and mothers have tags. They dont bond with "their" baby they bond with "a" baby, if they dont immediately notice that the baby isnt theirs then it becomes theirs.
A human baby takes so long to develop to sexual maturity that by the time a mothers son becomes mature they are approaching menopause. Sexual maturity in humans has changed masively in the last century it used to be 17-18 yrs old now it can be as low as 11 or 12. Additionally, families used to be bigger and laws against divorce meant that even if a boy was separated from its mother the chances of that son coming across his mother and having any relationship is almost nil. However it has happened, not with a mother and son but with brother and sister, a boy and girl adopted at bith by separate foster parents met through the internet. They liked each other and seemed to have a vibe as if they were always on the same "wavelength" it was their friends who made many comments about how similar they looked. We dont really have a true idea how we look and dont identify with how the opposite gender to us looks. To me I look like my brother and nothing like my sisters but to everyone else we are all obviously a family.
I was separated from my mother at about 9 months because she was very sick I returned to her home from my grandmothers when about 4 yrs. I dont remember anything really definite apart from I always had a close bond and feeling with my grandmother, from the age of 5 when I have clear memory my mother was my mother and her mother my gran. There is no chance of a child separated at 2 from its mother recognizing her. However if the mother has a few children there is a chance of the mother or siblings or their close friends recognizing it. Until 200 years ago people didnt know what they actually looked like. Without a mirror or photo (the province of the very wealthy) you know what everyone else looks like except yourself. A Mother would recognize a child only if it looked like her other children or as a long shot a son who is the image of his father. Similarly a child recognizes all his brothers and sisters but not himself. An only child wont recognise a lost sibling but a group of siblings may do.
Dont get me started on inter family relationships dog or human. I am forbidden by law from hurting and killing my family members or indeed any other human , what I and my brother will do is make sure my sister is not able to make my mothers life a misery and she will have no access to her money until the will is read after which I will never ever see her again....maybe dogs are the same?
A4K
Brigadier General
Wherever this thread is headed, I still love the adage 'The more people I meet, the more I love my dog' 
mikewint
Captain
The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind - Theodorus Gaza
GregP
Major
We have a dentist who PAID for a lion hunt, hired a local guide to make sure it was right, and killed a lion. And HE's the bad guy? What about the guide and the fact that the license was sold by the country in question for the fee paid? I can guarantee they didn't offer to reimburse it before he got there.
Simple. If they don't want their lions hunted, don't sell the right to do it. If they DO want to let lion hunting happen, then stop bitching about it when it happens. I bet said dentist never spends another dime in Africa!
Usually hunting licenses and hunting permits are sold when the population of some beast is getting a bit large ... not when it is endagered. Wanna' care about the bad crap? What about the starving and poverty-stricken people in same country?
Nobody seems to care about or mention that ... I'd rather save a person than a lion. And if I cared about the lion, I wouldn't sell the right to it's life to a foreign hunter in the first place.
Simple. If they don't want their lions hunted, don't sell the right to do it. If they DO want to let lion hunting happen, then stop bitching about it when it happens. I bet said dentist never spends another dime in Africa!
Usually hunting licenses and hunting permits are sold when the population of some beast is getting a bit large ... not when it is endagered. Wanna' care about the bad crap? What about the starving and poverty-stricken people in same country?
Nobody seems to care about or mention that ... I'd rather save a person than a lion. And if I cared about the lion, I wouldn't sell the right to it's life to a foreign hunter in the first place.
Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
Its the reason why I do what I do...................
I do find the "perpetually offended" amusing at times, how many would object to someone shooting a lion in their garden, would they demand to see a license or check for a tag?
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
And while the world was busy crapping it's drawers over the killing of a "beloved" lion, how many other lions (or other species, for that matter) were quietly poached and no one noticed or cared?
Without the legal-licensed hunts, these dirt-poor countries would have no money for their preserves, the anti-poaching patrols or vetinary/medical sanctuaries for wildlife.
Without the legal-licensed hunts, these dirt-poor countries would have no money for their preserves, the anti-poaching patrols or vetinary/medical sanctuaries for wildlife.
mikewint
Captain
Whoa horsies, I am a hunter as well. I hunt for meat which we eat. I take my Bambi every year in season, legally. BUT I do NOT hunt an animal JUST for its HEAD to mount on my wall. I strongly resent these trophy hunters with too much disposable cash and tiny Johnsons
The lion in question was in a protected animal preserve. He (lion) was wearing a radio collar as part of a study by Oxford University and had been baited out of the protected area by two men who Palmer had paid $50,000 to lure the lion to him, JUST so he (lion) could be killed. In 2006 Palmer had obtained a permit to hunt bear within a specific area of northern Wisconsin. He then proceed to kill a black bear 40 miles outside that area. The carcass was then taken to a registration station where he lied to game wardens about where the bear had been killed. He was later charged in court where he received a $3000 fine and a year probation. He also has numerous convictions for fishing without a license. A true Sportsman
The lion in question was in a protected animal preserve. He (lion) was wearing a radio collar as part of a study by Oxford University and had been baited out of the protected area by two men who Palmer had paid $50,000 to lure the lion to him, JUST so he (lion) could be killed. In 2006 Palmer had obtained a permit to hunt bear within a specific area of northern Wisconsin. He then proceed to kill a black bear 40 miles outside that area. The carcass was then taken to a registration station where he lied to game wardens about where the bear had been killed. He was later charged in court where he received a $3000 fine and a year probation. He also has numerous convictions for fishing without a license. A true Sportsman
- Thread starter
- #37
at6
1st Sergeant
Hey Mike. California Bambi tastes better than Arkansas or Missouri Bambi. My uncle used to make deer jerky and when he used the venison from your part of the world, it tasted like sh&t. We both agreed that the Bambi here was better because of the different dietary offerings.
mikewint
Captain
Oh Yea...well.... your mother wears Army shoes!!!
I have an uncle-in-law that turns are that beautiful meat into sausage??? In any case California deer come pre-roasted, smoked, and jerked lately
I have an uncle-in-law that turns are that beautiful meat into sausage??? In any case California deer come pre-roasted, smoked, and jerked lately
bobbysocks
Chief Master Sergeant
LMAO your mother wears army boots...I haven't heard that in eons...
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
As far as Cecil goes, that was an eff-up of the highest order. Ill-conceived and wrong from start to finish.
However, most of these modern trophy hunts are used to cull the herd of old males or over-population, much like the Bear and Cougar hunts used to do out here in California. With ever increasing of human development into their habitat, the food source becomes strained as the numbers increase, whether it's the grazers or the predators.
A good example of this problem is here in California, with reduced Deer tags available now, the deer population is exploding. Add to the problem of the banning of Mountain Lion hunting and now we have a huge mess because of the increased game, there's increased predator populations.
