fubar57
General
Probably a good thing I now have Mike blocked. Terrible chain of events. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/flight-ps752-garneau-update-iran-1.5424649
Ukraine International Airlines PS752
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Mike first of all, it was not necessarily deliberate. Was the plane shot down deliberately? Yes, because they thought it was a military aircraft, but even Iran did not go...
"Oh jeez, looky there, it's a Ukranian airliner full of civilians. Lets fire a missile at it."
So yes they mistakenly shot it down, not deliberately. So yes it was an accident. Just like when the USS Vincennes shot down an airliner full of civilians back in the 80's.
Secondly, trust me mike you did not offend me. Re-read what I said carefully. Here, I'll help...
I said that you thinking people here on the forum are naive to think that Iran was being honest is insulting to our intelligence.
Most of us are not idiots here...
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The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
Problem here that modern Russian SAM are killers to civilian airliners as has been proven on occasion.
So maybe the missile was not deliberately targeted at a civilian airliner.
The Iranians got Moe, Larry and Curly on this absolute beast of a device and we can blame them for that.
You put eejits in charge and they do eejit things. A properly trained crew who are light on their feet and copulate with the Prom Queen are not going to do stupid.
Trick is that if the standard of the SAM crew is so poor then the Americans must be happy as the threat from such devices are considerably lower.
So maybe the missile was not deliberately targeted at a civilian airliner.
The Iranians got Moe, Larry and Curly on this absolute beast of a device and we can blame them for that.
You put eejits in charge and they do eejit things. A properly trained crew who are light on their feet and copulate with the Prom Queen are not going to do stupid.
Trick is that if the standard of the SAM crew is so poor then the Americans must be happy as the threat from such devices are considerably lower.
Iran certainly needs to be held accountable for this.
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- #45
Crimea_River
Marshal
Yep.
They justify their power by using (or creating) a terrifying external or internal threat to justify their actions.
The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
They saying they arrested the guy who took the video of the SAM hit on the jet.
So that solves the problem.
So that solves the problem.
The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
Problem is that the SAM boys are going to get justice of the 7.62 by 39 variety.
One issue of dictatorships is a fair trial and a fair hearing are not going to happen.
A kangaroo court on live TV followed by swift execution of sentence is best they can hope for.
Dictatorships may have issues and shortages but bullets are plentiful and cure all ills.
One issue of dictatorships is a fair trial and a fair hearing are not going to happen.
A kangaroo court on live TV followed by swift execution of sentence is best they can hope for.
Dictatorships may have issues and shortages but bullets are plentiful and cure all ills.
Yeah, but I wanted to avoid it becoming political so I kept it very narrow...That is not limited to dictators...
It will not go further than my comment. That us for sure...
mikewint
Captain
Chris, a picky point but the use of the word "accident" as it is used here and in so many other instances colors perception of the event. An "accident" is, by definition, unintentional. We accidentally drop dinner plates, or send e-mails before we're done writing them. The word also suggests something of the unforeseen — an event that couldn't have been anticipated, for which no one can be blamed and yet Iran is offering up Moe, Larry. and Curly.
If I stand in the middle of an interstate highway and wiggle my behind and get hit by a semi, is it an "accident". If I'm in the middle of a Duck Sanctuary with a multitude of ducks flying overhead and I shoot into the air have I "accidentally" shot a duck?
Moe, Larry, and Curly were stationed next to a commercial civilian airport. It was days after the US drone strike and hours after their retaliatory missile strike. There are several commercial civilian flights that have and are in the process of taking off. I know nothing about the type of targeting/guidance used, RADAR, IR, VISUAL, LASER, or what information the device provided to the launch crew but seriously, assuming that one dot that turns the wrong way is somehow Military with hostile intent is beyond credibility.
Accident? Probably not deliberate in the sense that the Gomers decided "Let's shoot down a passenger jet today" but "deliberate" and "intentional in the sense that someone decided to launch not one but two SAMS and some pushed a button.
Iranians have constantly referred to July 3, 1988 when the USS Vincennes shot down Iran Air flight 655 The Airbus had taken off from Bandar Abbas, Iran, heading for Dubai in the United Arab Emirates. The Airbus A300 began its ascent as normal, part of a twice-weekly route flown by the airline for over 20 years. The captain communicated with air traffic controllers in English. His last message was: "Thank you, good day."
The Vincennes meanwhile had mistaken the commercial aircraft for an Iranian F-14, despite having state-of-the-art combat equipment at the time. The U.S. says the Navy made 11 radio warning calls on different frequencies before the Vincennes fired two missiles at the airplane, bringing it down and killing all aboard. Again perhaps my lack of knowledge of combat RADAR but mistaking an Airbus for an F-14??? stretches my credulity
You are purposely being obtuse here Mike. Did they deliberately and intentionally target a civilian aircraft, or did they accidentally mistake a Ukrainian airliner for a military aircraft. Hence it was a tragic accident. An accident that Iran must be held accountable for.
mikewint
Captain
Chris, not, if you'll re-read my post I asked a question. Do you or anyone else for that matter know/suspect what kind/type os SAM system was used. In general I'm a bit incredulous that, much like with the Vincennes incident how do you "mistake" an Airbus for a F-14? Are these systems THAT inexact?
I'll grant that the grunt operators probably had little or no training besides "Push this button when I tell you to" but one would thing someone with more training/authority was present.
I'll grant that the grunt operators probably had little or no training besides "Push this button when I tell you to" but one would thing someone with more training/authority was present.
Mike, I don't know. I'm not an expert on Russian built air defense systems. I am also not a conspiracy theorist. For those reasons I do not speculate.
I do know that tensions were very high at the time. I also know that stress can make people do odd things. I also know that transponders fail, and radar can return all sorts of signatures. I also know that there are plenty of military bombers that will put off a signature similar to a 737.
I also know that even a country like Iran has nothing to gain from deliberately targeting a Ukrainian airliner.
I guess the issue comes down to the following
- Deliberate action: Self explanatory
- Forseeable Accident: It wasn't deliberate, but one should have known better
- Unforseeable Accident: It wasn't deliberate and it would have been hard to have dodged that figurative landmine.
mikewint
Captain
Chris, that was my first thought as well which is why that BBC "turned back toward the airport" gave some hope that it was mechanical/electric.
With your close association to military aircraft I hoped that you had some insights into the operations/returns on a MIL-type RADAR. Transponders can of course be set to give any signature desired and/or turned off. I can see a big Mil-bomber giving the same or similar RADAR signature as 737-800 BUT a B-52 or other type US bomber would standout like a sore thumb at the civilian airport. Were/are they that paranoid that the could think that the US would outfit a 737 as a bomber or perhaps take a play from their own playbook and crash a fuel-laden passenger jet into their Mil-base.
In the true sense of the word "accident" I still don't buy it. Jihadists don't really spend a whole lot of time distinguishing one type of Christian from another. So I'm not promulgating a "Conspiracy" here just ignorance, hatred, and a total lack of forethought. "I killed you 176 Christians my 67 virgins are waiting"
He turned back to the airport because that is what he is trained to the do. He was still climbing to cruising altitude, and he was hoping to make it back to a runway for landing.
Transponders do not give off a "signature", they give off a specific code or squawk, that is assigned to the aircraft. In addition to identification information, the transponder can also give off altitude information for instance in the case of Mode C. The code is either a general code, or an assigned code. 1200 for instance is the code that is used for VFR flight. If an aircraft is operating in controlled airspace it is given a squawk code by ATC. For instance when I am out flying, and I ask for flight following, the tower will assign me a squawk code. I enter the code into the transponder, and that code then identifies myself to the tower. Other "codes" that can be used are 7500 for instance, when an aircraft has been hijacked. or 7700 when an aircraft is in an emergency situation. Lets say an aircraft loses its radios, the pilot can dial in 7600 into the transponder and it will show up on ATC's radar identifying the aircraft as having lost coms.
Whenever I fly into a controlled airspace, I have to contact the ATC. The tower will ask me to IDENT. "Cherokee 678CA, Squawk 2738, IDENT". I enter in 2738 into the transponder. There is a button on the transponder controller labeled IDENT. When I press IDENT, it lets them know which aircraft on their radar screen is my aircraft. Then they know which aircraft on the screen they are talking to, and have my altitude information. I am now differentiated from all the aircraft they are currently controlling.
As for radar signatures. Can you tell me how a B-52 would look on a screen, or how a 737 would look on a screen? Can you differentiate? I cannot, but then again you and I are not trained on such. So, therefore we can only speculate what we think they see. Speculation is worthless.
It is irrelevant how you or me for that matter define it. It was a tragic accident because the aircraft was misidentified as a military target. That is the exact meaning of an accident. Like it or not. That does not mean that Iran should not be held accountable and face the consequences of this, but that does not change the fact that it was an accident.
One final note before I bow out of this conversation. Your last comment "I killed you 176 Christians my 67 virgins are waiting", shows your ignorance, and quite honestly is a very stupid remark. You are aware that 82 of the passengers were Iranians Nationals, 7 were citizens of Afghanistan, and the vast majority of the 63 Canadians were Iranian-Canadians who lived in Canada and were visiting their families in Iran. The majority were of Muslim faith. So your Christians and Virgins comment was uncalled for, and quite honestly lacked class.
I will leave it at that...
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mikewint
Captain
Why?? I don't think passenger jets have RADAR warning receivers like fighter jets.
Secondly I really appreciate all the rest of your post. I did not know a lot of what you posted abut transponders so thank you
The answer is of course NO. I've seen radar screens from the back of some helos but paid little to know attention, but you missed my point which is/was that I would THINK that a B-52 and 737-800 would possibly look quite similar BUT, I would think that either of those would "look?" different than an F-14 which is much smaller. So while I could understand an ID mistake between the B-52 and 737-800 the very presence of a B-52 at the Iranian airport would have stood out like a neon sign EVERYONE would have been aware of it.
Going back to the US shoot-down of the Iranian passenger jet-
Scientific American stated in an article that in the USS Vincennes incident:
The Aegis System software reuses tracking numbers in its display, constituting a user interface design flaw. The Aegis software initially assigned on-screen identifier TN4474 to Flight 655. Then just seconds before Vincennes fired, the Aegis software switched the Flight 655 tracking number to TN4131 and recycled Flight 655's old tracking number of TN4474 to label a fighter jet 110 miles away. When the captain asked for a status on TN4474, he was told it was a fighter and descending.
A psychological evaluation of the crew, concluded that stress and inexperience of the crew in warfare, resulted in misjudgment and unconscious distortion of data which played a significant role in the misinterpretation of the data of the Aegis System.
The ship's crew did not efficiently consult commercial airliner schedules due to confusion over which time zone the schedules referred to. The airliner's departure was 27 minutes later than scheduled. "The Combat Information Center (CIC) was also very dark, and the few lights that it did have flickered every time Vincennes fired at the speedboats. This was of special concern to Petty Officer Andrew Anderson, who first picked up Flight 655 on radar and thought that it might be a commercial aircraft. As he was searching in the navy's listing of commercial flights, he apparently missed Flight 655 because it was so dark.
The Navy also re-emphasized to all officers that defense of their ship was their first duty. With this event fresh in the minds of all Navy COs operating in the Persian Gulf,Vincennes' crew may have felt that after making attempts to contact the airliner and receiving no response, their first duty was to defend the ship against hostile action.
Lastly Chris in reference to your bold face paragraph I stated: #1. that I sincerely doubt that the missile crew had a passenger manifest handy to consult and even if they had it would have made no difference because -
#2. JIHADISTS- In 1998, Osama Bin Laden and the heads of four jihadist groups in Egypt, Pakistan and Bangladesh signed a declaration of total war against the United States and its allies, and called for the targeting of both soldiers and civilians.
The Prophet Muhammad said Muslim armies should do their best to avoid harming children and other non-combatants. But the declaration says that killing them is an act of reciprocity for the death of Muslim civilians. After 11 September 2001,Bin Laden sought to justify attacking American civilians by arguing that as citizens of a democratic state who elected its leaders, they bore responsibility for their leaders' actions.
ISIS targets religious minorities within its held territory, the group also calls for attacks against Christians, so-called apostates, Jews, and Hindus worldwide. One article from ISIS's online English-language magazine Dabiq declared that the militant group rejects any religion that does not parallel its own extremist brand of Sunni Islam. "We hate you," the article directed at its secular readers, "first and foremost, because you are disbelievers; you reject the oneness of Allah – whether you realize it or not.
As to the presence of non-Christians on the aircraft - the Islamic State does not view its victims as Muslims. Indeed, mainstream Sunni Islam—the world's dominant strand of Islam which 90 percent of the world's Muslims, including ISIS, adhere to—views all non-Sunnis as false Muslims; at best, they are heretics who need to submit to the "true Islam." IF a True Muslim gets kill by their actions it is also not a concern because in their view they will immediately ascend to Paradise, E.G. - On Friday, November 24, some 30 gunmen carrying the Islamic State flag bombed and stormed a Sufi mosque in Egypt's North Sinai, about 125 miles northeast of Cairo. They managed to massacre at least 305 people, 27 of whom were children.
As my 67 virgins I was off by 5 - The Quran states that all Muslim males, not only martyrs, will be rewarded with virgins. However, the Quran does also mention that those who fight in the way of Allah (jihad) and get killed will be given a "great reward", and there are also hasan (good) hadith which refer to 72 virgins as one of the "seven blessings from Allah" to the martyr. This has lead to the 72 virgins concept being widely used as a way to entice martyrdom.
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