Ukraine International Airlines PS752

[Crimea_River]

Just turned on the news to see video evidence that this aircraft was brought down by a missile shortly after departing Tehran airport.

176 lives lost, 63 of whom were Canadian citizens.

I'm upset, sad and angry and don't know what to think. This will not doubt get political and will get shut down quickly. In the meantime, I can only hope this stupid world comes to its senses. F!ck me.....

 

[rochie]

I agree my friend, sad times indeed

 

[Airframes]

Agree too. When I first saw the reports and video / stills, yesterday, my initial reaction was that this didn't look like a crash due to "engine failure", as the debris field seemed wide and scattered, more in line with an airborne explosion, or very large explosion on impact.

 

[vikingBerserker]

I couldn't understand how engine failure was determined before the black boxes and wreckage were examined, especially with no distress call. I read on the BBC this morning that the site was being bulldozed.

Regardless, it really is tragic.

 

[MIflyer]

Aside from the amateur video, the remains of a Russian SAM were found on the ground, which was the first tip off. They apparently fired two of them.

And reportedly, USAF missile early warning satellites saw not only the Scud launches but also the missiles that brought down the airliner.

Iran has said, "Prove we did it!" But they have agreed to accept some Transport Canada investigators.

 

[mikewint]

Who were the Cretins that decided: "Gee Guys were in the middle of a potential war zone with missiles zooming through the sky all around us, let's take off and fly through them."

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I couldn't understand how engine failure was determined before the black boxes and wreckage were examined, especially with no distress call. I read on the BBC this morning that the site was being bulldozed.

Regardless, it really is tragic.

It was "determined" to be engine failure by the Iranians before an investigation had been done because they already knew that they shot it down. What were they going to say? "Oops, sorry. We shot it down."

 

[MIflyer]

Well, supposedly the airport was still open and other flights were arriving and departing. Maybe they did not have their radar transponder set correctly.

The Ukrainians themselves shot down a Air Siberia commercial flight with a SAM in 2001. They were conducting military exercises and I guess they mistook it for a target drone.

Or, it could be like what occurred at the first operational Nike Ajax site in the US, at Ft Meade. It was the first site built and the only one that was entirely above ground, since it was on Federal Govt property and they did not have to pay for the greatly increased land area. It was normal procedure to run simulations by tracking passing airliners, and one day they were doing just that when rain water caused a short circuit and a simulated launch turned out to be a real one. Fortunately, the safety pins were still in the missile and as it launched it broke up. Debris fell on the BW Parkway, and the site commander ran over to the impact area, gathered the missile parts, and threw them in the trunk of his car. The nitric acid propellant ate the bottom out of his trunk; his next assignment was in Northern Canada.

At another Nike site in NJ they were installing new safe and arm devices for the missile warheads and found that the S&A's did not fit into the screw in sockets very tightly. Ever see anyone take wire and wrap it around a light bulb socket because it fits too loosely? Well, that is what they did. The missile they were working on exploded, killing everyone in the immediate vicinity. One of the adjacent missiles ignited and took flight but fortunately hit a low hill before it could end up in NYC or somewhere. Damage to the surrounding facilities and civilian buildings was extensive.

 

[mikewint]

From the BBC:
On 8 January, at 06:12 local time (02:42 GMT), UIA flight PS752 took off from Tehran's Imam Khomeini International Airport.
The plane was a Boeing 737-800 - one of the international airline industry's most widely used aircraft models.
Before it had left the airport's air space, the plane turned around and tried to return to the runway. Shortly afterwards, it crashed.
Iranian authorities have blamed technical issues, but the crash's timing - just hours after Iran launched missiles at US targets in Iraq - provoked speculation about other possible causes.
Tom Burridge, the BBC's transport correspondent, said the rapid disappearance of tracking data suggested a catastrophic incident occurred.
Some aviation experts have also cast doubt on claims, made shortly after the crash on Iranian state media, that the crash was likely to have been caused by an engine fire.
Commercial aircraft are designed to be able to withstand - in general - a failed engine and to land safety.
On Thursday, Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said evidence suggested an Iranian missile brought down the aircraft by accident.
"We have intelligence from multiple sources, including our allies and our own intelligence," Mr Trudeau told a news conference in Ottawa. "The evidence indicates that the plane was shot down by an Iranian surface-to-air missile. This may well have been unintentional."
He was echoing earlier reports in US media, which said Pentagon officials were confident that the aircraft was shot down.
Newsweek cited Pentagon and Iraqi sources as saying the strike was probably accidental. CBS News then said US intelligence officials had picked up signals indicating a radar was turned on and two missiles launched.
Iran's Civil Aviation Organisation (CAOI) released its own initial report into the crash on Thursday.
It said the Boeing 737-800 suffered a technical problem shortly after take-off, and cited witnesses, including the crew of another passenger plane, that it was on fire prior to impact.
Authorities said they lost radar contact when the plane was at an altitude of about 8,000ft (2,400m), minutes after taking off.
No radio distress call was made by the pilot, the report said. "Several domestic and foreign flights were flying in Iranian space at the same altitude. The issue of the missile's impact on the aircraft cannot be true in any way," CAOI chief Ali Abedzadeh said.

I added the italics. I had not heard that the aircraft tried to turn and return. Seems like something you'd do if there were some type of failure developing. I don't think that commercial aircraft have missile/radar lock warning systems like fighter jets.
No distress call seems to indicate a a rapid catastrophic event. Hopefully the black box will have cockpit recordings.
Several flights in the air at the time so why would the Iranians target a Ukrainian flight. A US aircraft would seem a more more likely target.
In any case if it were missiles they can't totally vanish after exploding something should remain as evidence

 

[MIflyer]

The attached photos compare debris found in the area with a Russian built TOR missile. Accuracy of the info is unknown.

 

[buffnut453]

Several flights in the air at the time so why would the Iranians target a Ukrainian flight. A US aircraft would seem a more more likely target.

I'm not sure this was a deliberately targeted act. It's entirely possible, given the raised tensions, that an Iranian SAM crew may have mistaken the Ukrainian flight for a hostile act by an American military aircraft, and so launched missiles.

Whatever the cause, the loss of life is truly tragic.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Mike, it's highly unlikely they intentionally picked out and targeted the aircraft. It was most likely mistaken as a military hostile threat.

 

[tyrodtom]

Might be a similar to the chain of events that led to the USS Vincennes shooting down the Iran Air flight # 655 Airbus in 1988, 290 people died.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Iran has now admitted to shooting it down...

Iran Says It Unintentionally Shot Down Ukrainian Airliner

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Might be a similar to the chain of events that led to the USS Vincennes shooting down the Iran Air flight # 655 Airbus in 1988, 290 people died.

The official Iranian statement says that it was mistaken as a military target when it turned toward a Revolutionary Guard facility, and that those responsible will be prosecuted. We all know what that means.

 

[GrauGeist]

Interesting how Iran's statement has changed from "probably engine failure" to "oops, we accidently shot it down"...

 

[Airframes]

Pressure of suggestion, offering an opportunity to save face, important in the Arab world.
Canada for example, "suggested" it might have been shot down unintentionally. World media and political pressure offer evidence, including video footage, that it was a missile strike. Rather than bluster further, Iran states it has investigated, and now admit it was an error etc etc.
Saving face.

 

[MIflyer]

In the case of the USS Vincennes, the ship had been in combat with Iranian naval forces all morning. Then an airliner took off from Tehran and headed toward the ship. Admittedly, later there was concern at the Pentagon that the ship's systems had not been tested in an environment where multiple powerful RF emitters are operating and that may have led to an inaccurate radar presentation. But just as in this case, no one ever thought anyone would be stupid enough to route a commercial airliner through a combat area.

While in the West we think of war and peace as being distinct and separate conditions, it seems that in Muslim countries they are always simultaneously at war and at peace. The idea of doing something differently because there is shooting going on never occurs to them, perhaps because in their societies there is always combat of some kind going on somewhere.

 

[tyrodtom]

In the case of the USS Vincennes, the ship had been in combat with Iranian naval forces all morning. Then an airliner took off from Tehran and headed toward the ship. Admittedly, later there was concern at the Pentagon that the ship's systems had not been tested in an environment where multiple powerful RF emitters are operating and that may have led to an inaccurate radar presentation. But just as in this case, no one ever thought anyone would be stupid enough to route a commercial airliner through a combat area.

While in the West we think of war and peace as being distinct and separate conditions, it seems that in Muslim countries they are always simultaneously at war and at peace. The idea of doing something differently because there is shooting going on never occurs to them, perhaps because in their societies there is always combat of some kind going on somewhere.

When all else fails, always blame the victim.

 

[The Basket]

The West may have been about to drop evidence that clearly showed the 737 was shot down. So Iran had to fess up or look like fools.

Although pretty obvious it was shot down and that was my first thought when I heard it had crashed.

I imagine walls and shooty things are in the future for the SAM crew.

To be honest the whole thing puzzles me. Iran launched a deliberate military attack against a USA base and doesnt turn into a glowing moonscape. Its almost like it was a deal so Iran can keep face and de-escalate the conflict.

Strange business but Iran is known for giving it back so maybe this was a way to keep the peace.