Unlikely Adversaries !

[Jenisch]

The Swiss Bf 109s did not engage Axis fighters that entered in their airspace?

 

[evangilder]

Good question. From what I have seen, allied and axis fighters that entered Swiss airspace were typically in trouble before crossing into Swiss airspace and were escorted to a field to be interned for the duration of the war. It would be interesting to see if there ever were any air battles. I would think that the Germans respected the Swiss neutrality.

 

[MikeGazdik]

How about a late-model Mosquito nightfighter vs a Black Widow? At night of course.

Great one! I don't know enough about each aircraft to make an educated guess. From what little I read, I think the Widow was a decent turning plane for its size. Im guessing Mossie has speed, and climb advantage. Oh this hurts, if that all is true I will say the Mossie!!

 

[MikeGazdik]

What about A6M5 Zero V.Ki-61 Tony?

Another great one! I will use even less education here. The Tony because it is the best looking Japanese fighter!!!

 

[wheelsup_cavu]

Good question. From what I have seen, allied and axis fighters that entered Swiss airspace were typically in trouble before crossing into Swiss airspace and were escorted to a field to be interned for the duration of the war. It would be interesting to see if there ever were any air battles. I would think that the Germans respected the Swiss neutrality.

I always thought the same thing about the Germans respecting the Swiss nations neutrality during WW II.

Source:Lignières: Then and Now

I would very much like to know whether the "then" photo was taken before or after 1940. On June 1st of that year, three squadrons of German Heinkel 111 bombers violated Swiss airspace and Messerschmitt 109 fighters operated by the Swiss Army were launched to intercept them. After the Germans refused a command to follow the fighters and land at a Swiss airstrip, an aerial combat ensued in which one of the bombers was shot down and crashed in Lignières into the isolated sqarish forested area at the middle right of the frame now informally named the Bois des Allemands

Source: Reformation and Resistance

Aerial Dogfights

As the Western front opened on 10 May 1940 with a German invasion of Holland, Belgium and France, 27 bombs were dropped by the Luftwaffe on Northern Switzerland, and Swiss anti-aircraft guns drove away German bombers and fighters. A Swiss squadron of pursuit planes engaged the Luftwaffe and a Swiss ME-109 shot down a Heinkel-111, twin-engine bomber. This was the first of many instances in which the Swiss used aircraft, initially purchased from Germany, to shoot down Luftwaffe warplanes.

German reconnaissance aircraft, equipped with cameras, flying over the fortified Northern frontier of Switzerland, were driven away by anti-aircraft fire. On 1 June, 36 German bombers entered Swiss air space and were attacked by Swiss ME-109's. Two HE-111 bombers were shot down. The next day another HE-111 was shot down by a Swiss fighter. On 4 June, as the British army was being evacuated from Dunkirk, the Swiss Air Force was engaged in an intensive dog-fight with 29 German planes. Both Luftwaffe and Swiss planes were shot down. One German aircraft had the following order on board: "Lure the Swiss fighters into battle and shoot down as many as possible." On 8 June, it was David against Goliath again – 15 Swiss aircraft engaged 28 Luftwaffe planes, resulting in the downing of 2 Swiss and 3 German aircraft.

Wheels

 

[Edgar Brooks]

A P-51B is 36mph faster than an Spitfire IX at high altitudes and more like 45 mph at low altitudes and can always use this to dictate the engagment despite a slight turn radious disadvantage..

In trials U.K. test pilots found that, in level flight, the Mustang III was 20-30 mph faster at all heights than the IX, could dive faster, and there was nothing between them in the climb.

I would see the Mk XIV as a serious challenge to the P-51 but the Mk IX not in the same league. The Mk XIV lost manouverabillity but whether this was so serious its turn was disadvantaged compared to the P-51 I have no information

The IX could roll faster, and turn inside, the Mustang III at all heights. The Air Fighting and Development Unit found that the roll and turn rates of the XIV were identical to the IX, so it would be interesting to know where you got this information about the XIV losing manoeuvrability; same place as the report that said the XIV needed two miles to perform a loop, perhaps?

 

[PJay]

Great one! I don't know enough about each aircraft to make an educated guess. From what little I read, I think the Widow was a decent turning plane for its size. Im guessing Mossie has speed, and climb advantage. Oh this hurts, if that all is true I will say the Mossie!!

Perhaps a chance for the Widow to use it's gun turret?

 

[tyrodtom]

During the Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba, there were A-26's on both sides, and some of the invaders A-26's were shot down by t-33's. The Cuban Air Force was armed with A-26, T-33, P-47, some Sea Furies, and maybe some P-51s. The invaders had A-26's, C-47's , C-54's and ??

I can think of a lot of potential Me109 on other Luftwaffe aircraft battles, like when Rumania dropped out of the Axis, and Finland also. Also When Yugoslavia was attacked by Germany, it was equipped with some early model Me109C's or Ds ?

 

[Vincenzo]

Yugoslavia was equipped with E

 

[Njaco]

Emils vs Friedrichs. I believe the Yugoslavian AF also had some Hurricanes so there is a picture. Hurris and Emils fighting side by side.

 

[Vincenzo]

Yes Yugoslavian had also Hurricane and a local built fighter IK-3 (and older models).
Was Emil vs Emil afaik were not deployed Friedrich in Balkans Campaign

 

[Njaco]

You might be correct. I know the F was being delivered early part of 41 and was just assuming. I could be wrong. Still interesting.

 

[MikeGazdik]

Thread was supposed to be a "what if", not a "did they". Fantasy fight if you will. But it has grown into something else, so be it. A what if for me, two of my absolute favorites: P-40 vs P-39 (I'm not choosing, can't decide, though I slightly favor the Warhawk.)

 

[Jabberwocky]

In trials U.K. test pilots found that, in level flight, the Mustang III was 20-30 mph faster at all heights than the IX, could dive faster, and there was nothing between them in the climb.

The IX could roll faster, and turn inside, the Mustang III at all heights.

From the Mustang III vs Spitfire IX tactical trails:

Climbs
18. The Mustang III has a considerably lower rate of climb at full power at all heights. (In a formation take off, Spitfire IX maintains formation with 5lbs less boost). At other engine settings and 175mph the 2 aircraft have a similar climb. The Mustang has, however, a better zoom climb in that it can dive 5,000ft or more and regain its original altitude at a greater speed. It needs less increase of power to regain its previous altitude and speed.

Rate of Roll
21. Although the ailerons feel light, the Mustang III cannot roll as quickly as the Spitfire IX at normal speeds. The ailerons stiffen up only slightly at high speeds and the rates of roll become the same at about 400mph.

From the Mustang III vs Spitfire XIV tactical trials:

Rate of Roll
30. Advantage tends to be with the Spitfire XIV.

NACA 868 and RAF trials indicates that the Mustang would have an advantage against the Spitfire (roll rate if for a Mk V with metal ailerons) above about 320 mph ASI with normal span wings, above about 360 mph ASI against clipped wing Spitfires.

 

[wuzak]

Thanks Jabberwocky - I always thought that the Spitfire would easilt outclimb the Mustang.

Din't realise that the IX and XIV could outrol the Mustang to fairly high speeds.

 

[Milosh]

7th January 1949

John McElroy Spitfire 2 British Spitfires 2 Kills

Slick Goodlin Spitfire British Spitfire Kill

Bill Schroeder Spitfire British Tempest Kill

McElroy (Cdn) and Goodin (USA) were ex RCAF while Schroeder was ex USN. Goodin flew the X-1.

CLASHING WITH THE RAF
The cease-fire between the Israelis and Egyptian Forces was due to take effect at 4 p.m on 7th January 1949, and would halt hostilities in the War of Independence. In the morning of 7th January, the RAF sent four Spitfires on a low-level reconnaissance mission over the battle front. Prior to the arrival of these RAF aircraft, Israeli ground forces had been heavily attacked by the Royal Egyptian Air Force, and three armored trucks were on fire. An Israeli tank, one of those stolen from the British Army and manned by a Machal crew, shot one of the four RAF Spitfires down. At that very time, two IAF Spitfires from 101 Squadron which were on patrol in the area saw this commotion on the ground, and the other three Spitfires in the area. The Israeli Spitfires engaged the RAF Spitfires, mistaking them for REAF planes, and in a short air battle, Canadian Machalnik John McElroy shot down two RAF Spitfires, and U.S. Machalnik Slick Goodlin shot down the remaining Spitfire. Later on in the morning, when a second pair of 101 Squadron Spitfires piloted by U.S. Machalnik Denny Wilson and South African Machalnik Arnie Ruch were patrolling the battle zone, they encountered eight REAF Macchis. Wilson engaged five Macchis, and although his plane was hit he returned safely to Hatzor air base. Then, later in the day, four 101 Squadron Spitfires led by Ezer Weizman engaged a formation of 19 British aircraft – 4 Spitfires and 15 Tempests, which had been dispatched from the Suez Canal zone to look for the 4 missing RAF Spitfires. Bill Schroeder shot down one Tempest, and Ezer Weizman damaged a second Tempest but didn't shoot it down. The IAF then decided to disengage, and so this was the last combat operation of the IAF's Spitfires in the War of Independence.

The Israel Air Force

 

[Njaco]

Thread was supposed to be a "what if", not a "did they". Fantasy fight if you will. But it has grown into something else, so be it. A what if for me, two of my absolute favorites: P-40 vs P-39 (I'm not choosing, can't decide, though I slightly favor the Warhawk.)

Sorry Mike. I'm guilty of that.

 

[tomo pauk]

I'd like to see a late war inter-LW clash, say, between 190D-9 and 109G-14, or Ta-152 vs. Bf-109K.

 

[CORSNING]

By mid 1943 it would have been the P-40N vs P-39N.
The P-40: 1. Coolant lines were protected better.
2. Longer range.
3. Better handling qualities and a slightly tighter turning radius.
4. Early P-40N had problems with coolant and lubrication lines.
5. P-40 had slightly better initial dive acceleration.
6. Better roll rate.
The P-39: 1. Much better climber 4,400 fpm vs 3,370 fpm max.
2. The Airacobra accelerated faster.
3. Over 20 mph faster at most altitudes: 399 mph vs 378 mph
max.
4. Heavy punch of a 37 mm cannon.

I guess it just depend on what you base the best as being able to do. The P-40 was considered to be outclassed in most areas by the Bf.109F. The VVS considered the P-39N to be equal to any Fw-190A or Bf.109G at low to medium altitudes.

 

[CORSNING]

No particular reason, just thought it would be more fun than 51 vs Spit.
The P-39 was considered more maneuverable than the Mustang at low and medium altitudes and speeds. The P-63 was more maneuverable than either. It could outroll and outturn both even at higher altitudes (25,000ft.). It could outclimb even the Spitfire at some altitudes durring some periods of the war. From what I have read, it had excellent handling and was very maneuverable. I'll have to do some more digging but I'm pretty sure it outrolled the Spitfire at higher speeds. Its biggest drawback was its lack of range after it dropped external fuel tanks. Just for fun I checked at WWII Aircraft Performance

Height..........Spitfire XIV.....P-63A
....................mph/fpm.......mph/fpm
Sea Level......359/4,700......383/4,980
.1,000m........376/4,675......394/4,825
.2,000m........390/4,625......407/4,625
.3,000m........405/4,510......415/4,350
.4,000m........416/3,850......421/3,950
.5,000m........415/3,690......423/3,450
.6,000m........422/3,670......422/2,950
.7,000m........434/3,510......412/2,525
.8,000m........447/2,960......407/1,960
.9,000m........444/2,400......394/1,500
10,000m.......437/1,875......376/1,025

The Spitfire is using +18 lbs. boost which was the most common in 1944 and the P-63 is the A-10 which was the most
numerous.
I'm out of time now but I have just finished a workup on the Spit XIV at +21 lbs. boost and the P-63D. After all, if the USAAF didn't have the P-47 and P-51 they would have put more interest into the King Cobra. Hey, come on. This is a kind of "What if" thread.
My wife says I got to go now. I'll post the figures tomorrow.