US Fighters shooting down Soviet fighters - Berlin 1945 ???

[Omaha92]

Hell all

I am currently reading A.Beevor's "The fall of Berlin 1945". Beevor says that US fighters once shot down Soviet fighters, mistaking the russian airplanes for german one's.

US pilots' mistake result was a serious diplomatic crisis between the two countries.

Have you heard about this and what exactly happened ?

Sorry if the subject has already been discussed. I'm a newbie ....

Regards,

Omaha92

 

[toffigd]

Honestly never heard of this. But it's possible if you're over enemy territory and expect mostly them...

 

[P38 Pilot]

I have never heard of this before! Are u sure its true?! I mean the luftwaffe was practicly DESTROYED! Besides, the US allowed the Communist to attack Berlin! (Which i thought was a huge mistake!)

 

[plan_D]

Why do you think it was a huge mistake? We let them waste a million or so lives trying to take it while we sat back. I think it was a great idea.

 

[cheddar cheese]

When you put it like that I agree too

 

[FLYBOYJ]

It did happen, in 1945 a flight of P-38s over Romania shot up a Russian convoy and killed a general, thinking it was a German unit. The Russian ground commanders had a habit of not telling US forces when they advanced into a certain area, so I remember reading. The Russians didn't report the incident to US forces, but told their air support folks to shoot down any P-38s that venture close to Soviet lines. A flight of 4 P-38s were bounced by 9 Yak-9s. In the ensuing battle 2 P-38s were lost and if I remember right 7 Yaks were lost, the P-38 flight leader claiming 5. I don't remember names or dates but I do know the Soviets protested the incident, the 2 remaining P-38 pilots were sent home and the whole incident was hushed up until the Korean War years.

 

[P38 Pilot]

You r right plan_d!! I just didnt like what the communist did too unarmed citizens. I would tell u what they did but i would be censored!!!! The Russian Communist r idiots! Having thier own men killed by making them charge into machine gun fire! I dont know whose worst: The Japanese or the Russians!

 

[plan_D]

You're really hyped up about those Russians. Trust me, we know what they did. In the words of an East Prussian on the Russian atrocities "...it was our Holocaust but no one cared..."

 

[cheddar cheese]

Shooting deserters was such a waste of time and resources.

 

[Smokey]

You r right plan_d!! I just didnt like what the communist did too unarmed citizens. I would tell u what they did but i would be censored!!!! The Russian Communist r idiots! Having thier own men killed by making them charge into machine gun fire! I dont know whose worst: The Japanese or the Russians!

In war all sides commit atrocities

 

[cheddar cheese]

Of course.

 

[Gnomey]

Interesting, I have heard rumours but nothing definite, really interesting.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

This is from an Air Classics Article, Aug., 2002 by Lee K. Carr

"RECALLING A LITTLE-KNOWN BATTLE BETWEEN AMERICAN P-38s AND SOVIET YAKS

This mission was flown by the 82nd Fighter Group 95th, 96th and 97th Fighter Squadrons - with the lead squadron being the 95th. Duration of mission was four hours. This mission was a request by the Russians, as a repeat support mission to be flown by the same group. The Russian ground forces had the Germans in retreat and, on the previous missions, the P-38s had done tremendous damage.

The mission was briefed to attack enemy columns and rail movements between Sejenica, Novipasar, Baska and Nitrouica in Yugoslavia but before I comment any further on this mission, I would like to make it clear that Group Commander Colonel C.T. Edwinson, an experienced pilot with more than 4000 hours and a veteran of 27 combat missions, personally led the mission. Some of the information in this article comes from three outgoing messages then confidential and top secret, but now declassified.

The first report was dated 13 November 1944 and was from Allied Forces Headquarters, Caserta, Italy, and directed to the War Department. This report gave an account of the mission after a detailed investigation concerning attack by USAAF Lightnings on a Soviet column in Yugoslavia on 7 November 1944. This report stated, "At about 60 miles southwest of Sejenica, the squadron split up and hit the deck and headed for their respective assignments. Colonel Edwinson's squadron arrived at what he thought to be Novipasar, found the road heavily trafficked and proceeded with his strafing - actually as verified by our camera later, he began his strafing at Krusevac and continued through Cicevan, to Nic." The report continued, "As his squadron completed its strafing and pulled off they were attacked by Red Air Force Yaks and in the first pass one Lightning was shot down. Colonel Edwinson immediately recognized the attackers as Yaks but, in the ensuing airfight before he could disengage and assemble his fighters, another Lightning and two, three or more Yaks were shot down. As his squadron was assembling, the Yak flight leader slid up to him and the two flight leaders confirmed mutual identification. Throughout this time the top cover squadron did not join the fray This was when Col. Edwinson immediately ordered the 95th Squadron to disengage. "It's the Russians, let's get the hell out of here," he radioed. I figure it was about this time that Captain Koldunov must have closed in with Col. Edwinson and flew formation until identities were clearly confirmed and all fighters immediately broke off combat. If this is what happened, it was very courageous. We all know it's rather hard to stop a fight after several blows have been swapped.

I have wondered where the Yaks were when we started strafing. We did more damage on this flight than any strafing mission I was on in my 50 missions.

Of the two P-38s that were lost: One was shot down in flames by a Yak, but we don't know if the second P-38 was shot down by a Yak or ground fire. The two pilots were Lt. Eldon E. "Gene" Coulson and Lt. Phillip Brewer. Lieutenant Keith Armstrong was hit by ground fire which knocked out one Allison, but he returned to base on single engine. Incidentally, during the aerial combat I might add Lt. George A. Bowers, Jr., was chasing a Yak and the pilot did his best to shake the P-38. The Russian did some barrel rolls so Lt. Bowers could only fire at him at the bottom of the roll. Finally, the Yak hit the deck and flew across an airfield in hopes of having the Russian antiaircraft shoot the P-38 off his tail. These were old German tricks but Lt. Bowers, seeing the planes on the airfield beneath him, dropped his nose and strafed across the field. This was never mentioned in any report. Lieutenant Bowers broke off at this time when he heard the Colonel's call.

I didn't know what these fighters were until we returned to our base in Foggia, Italy. We all went through a very special interrogation on an individual basis with the brass from Wing Headquarters. Colonel Edwinson asked us to identify on a map the exact location we thought we had been strafing. I found where I was from a location of a church I kept as a point of reference. I was in the wrong area, but I still contend we could have been led into the wrong valley by strafing this convoy which had advanced too far. It has been commented that the Russians had failed to advise Foggia that, between the previous day's support mission, Russian ground forces had advanced the battle line by 100 kilometers.

We were always, as a rule, three days behind the Russian intelligence, we had very little Russian aircraft identification, and we never had liaison between the air and ground forces involved on any Russian front. I was of the opinion we had a 50-mile line from any of the known Russian lines and after this incident officials set up restrictions prohibiting tactical operations closer than 80 miles from known Soviet positions.

I could never blame Col. Edwinson. I still feel as I look back that such a mission was inevitable sooner or later and the law of averages would catch up with us. The many missions on which we supported the Red Forces, with very heavy German destruction, must not be overlooked."

 

[lesofprimus]

Excellent post... I knew of this engagememnt, but not the details.........

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Thanks Les - Years ago there was an aviation calendar issued with a print showing this incident. It shows a P-38 blasting through a Yak like it was butter!

 

[P38 Pilot]

Hey, it was the russians fault that they lost a general. If those ground forces had told the United States about where they were located at then it wouldnt have happened. But because the Russians love too be sneaky it happened. But what i think made this argument worst was the fact that russian pilots were now being told too engage and attack American or

maybe even British pilots! They actully made this worst. They put "salt on the wound!"

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Agree - This was their way of doing business during the Stalin years!

 

[Hunter368]

Hell all

I am currently reading A.Beevor's "The fall of Berlin 1945". Beevor says that US fighters once shot down Soviet fighters, mistaking the russian airplanes for german one's.

US pilots' mistake result was a serious diplomatic crisis between the two countries.

Have you heard about this and what exactly happened ?

Sorry if the subject has already been discussed. I'm a newbie ....

Regards,

Omaha92

I am sure there was several times where USA and Russian planes fought. In Eric Hartmann's book "Blond Knight" he told of a fight he was in with the Russians and USA showed up in P51's and it was a all out fight between everyone. Eric shoot down 1 or 2 P51's in that fight before he got out of dodge and let the Americans and Russians fight it out. He did see several planes go down from both sides during the fight. Interesting for sure.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

My uncle flew Ferret Missions in a B-50 after the Korean War. He said he witnessed shoot-outs between Soviet and US fighters and said many of the missions he flew, their aircraft were armed...

 

[Medvedya]

You r right plan_d!! I just didnt like what the communist did too unarmed citizens. I would tell u what they did but i would be censored!!!! The Russian Communist r idiots! Having thier own men killed by making them charge into machine gun fire! I dont know whose worst: The Japanese or the Russians!

You are still a total muppet sometimes I see! I suppose you mean the same idiots who held out for 900 days in Leningrad, or resisted the Nazi invaders with practically their bare hands at Volokalamsk, or fought continuously for four years losing on average 19,000 soldiers a day, on a front that spanned from the Arctic to the Middle East and ran from the edge of the Volga over a 1000 miles back to Berlin?

Have you also considered that what the Third Reich did to unarmed citizens in Russia, Ukraine, and the Baltic regions wasn't very nice either and although still atrocious, that the actions of many (but by no means all) Soviet soldiers in Germany were motivated out of revenge?

In addition by 1945 those suicidal 'Urrah' charges had largely disappeared from Soviet tactics after the Red Army was re-organised in 1943.

The 20 plus million military and civilian Soviet dead you cheerfully describe as idiots made it possible for the Allies in the west to defeat the Nazis and win the Second World War.

A bit of advice - scenes from historical films can not be passed off as historical fact! Even if they do have Rachel Weise in then.