Village Inn

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by kiwicobber, Mar 1, 2006.

  1. kiwicobber

    kiwicobber New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2006
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    I've been trying to find out information on the Village Inn Airborne Gun laying system fitted to the Lancaster. I had never heard of this particular piece of equipment until just recently. It sounds pretty futuristic for the time. Does anyone have good information on this system?
     
  2. Gemhorse

    Gemhorse Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2004
    Messages:
    587
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Not much at present, but replacement turrets in B.Mk.III Lancasters to heavier calibre guns, late in the War, were the deletion of Fraser-Nash F.N.20 turrets for F.N.121 [still 7.7mm -.303in]; F.N.82 with two Browning 12.7mm [0.5 in] and also the Rose-Rice Type R No.2 Mk.I of the same calibre; - This turret was often combined with this other late-war development, the ''Village Inn'' Automatic Gun-laying Turret, incorporating a 'radar sight for automatic laying and firing of the turret's guns'.......Can't scare-up much else about it presently, but the Rose-Rice turrets were apparently ''big enough to house two gunners''.....
     
  3. the lancaster kicks ass

    the lancaster kicks ass Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2003
    Messages:
    19,980
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    38
    sorry about my late reply however i have not managed to get on for a while due to lack of time...........

    Gemhorse is partially correct, the Automatic Gun Laying (Turrets) or AGL(T) as they were known were code named "Village Inn". The system was fitted only to Nash and Thompson FN121 rear turrets (the 121 was simply a FN120 with the AGL(T)), meaning the turrets were still armed to the teeth with four Browning .303 machine guns, each with 2,500 rpg, the system was never fitted to the Rose Rice turrets, and as a side note Gem where did you hear about the RR turrets being big enough for two people? many of the gunners that used it said there was barely enough for one! The system was designed with the FN82 in mind, however the 82 was fitted in too small numbers and as far as i'm aware the system was never fitted to the FN82s

    The system first saw use in July 1944 when fitted to lancs of 49 and 460 Sqns, but 460 Sqn later had the system taken away. By the end of the war it was fitted in 35, 49, 582 and 635 Sqns in 5 and 8 (PFF) groups

    The system itself was a small RADAR scanner housed inside a small black dome slightly below the turret, it moved in sync if with the guns (wherever the guns point the RADAR points), once an enemy was detected direction and range data was fed back to the navigator, and the gunner was given warning of the enemy and the crew decided a responce.

    early on the turret was liked by the crews however eventually the Germans found a way of homing on to the RADAR transmissions and finding the bombers and so the point came where the system had to be used very selectively, however even if a fighter was tracking the bomber the RADAR would still pick up the fighter

    This of course begs the question, how did the crews know if the aircraft they were tracking was an enemy fighter or a friendly bomber? that's easy, the friendly bombers were never picked up by the system? how can this be? were the lancs fitted with radar absorbant material and incredible stealth technology? no, not really, it's incredibly simple actually, so simple the jerries never figured out what it was, it was simply known as the "Z-system". the system consisted of two infra-red lamps placed in the nose blister of lancs, that's all it was, two infra-red lamps, because infra-red light would override the AGL(T) system :lol:

    below is the only picture i have of the AGL(T) system (apart from some very nice ones in books), it can just be made out below the rear turret, and below that is the "Z-system", notice the two small rings above the clear vision pannel in the nose blister? that's them........
     

    Attached Files:

  4. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 20, 2004
    Messages:
    13,090
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Platonic Sphere
    Gents you are aware the Luftw. NJG's were experimenting with infa-red scanners in 1941 in their Do 217's and esepcially NJG 1 Bf 110G's all black ?

    also then in the 1945 a central nose mounted scanner was used with success in Ju 88G-6's.
     
  5. pbfoot

    pbfoot Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2005
    Messages:
    7,636
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    niagara falls
    About the Luftwaffe IR thats impressive but now a question for Lanc what or where was the cooling system for the H2S located and how did it work did it use outside air temp or something else
     
  6. Gemhorse

    Gemhorse Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2004
    Messages:
    587
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    In Mike Garbett Brian Gouldings' book, ''Lancaster'' [ISBN 1 85648 055 0], P.55, shows 3 rear turrets indicating their progressive development through the War....that particular statement went on to say the RR turrets were used mainly by I Group, and the pic also shows a 'Monica' radar aerial beneath it....- It certainly 'looked' roomier, having a different layout altogether from the preceding ones, with even more 'open area' of perspex for the gunners view....

    In ''Lancaster'' by Christopher Chant [ISBN 0 75258 769 2], P.48, is his statement about the RR turret and 'Village Inn'....

    In regard to 'Type Z', I read mention of it in a book about 100 Group, when F/Sgt Honeyman F/L 'Topsy' Turner of RAF 85 Sqn. shot down a Ju.188 on 4/5 April 1945.....
    ....''At 100 yds, there was no Type F response [an infra-red telescope which could pick-up a light source under the tail of RAF bombers, but invisible to the naked eye because the the light was covered by a black shield, known as 'Type Z']. Using night binoculars, the target aircraft was identified from underneath as a Ju.188....''
    - It's the first I had ever heard about this system; I had though IFF was their main ID system, which was able to be homed on to by German NF's...

    Unfortunately I don't have the advantage of checking these types of things out 'first-hand', as in museums, ex-aircrew etc., having to rely on what I've read about, which is also probably limited in what is available to me....But thanks for that Lanc, it was most informative - I'd heard of 'Village Inn', but that was all I could lay my hands on.........
     
  7. the lancaster kicks ass

    the lancaster kicks ass Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2003
    Messages:
    19,980
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    38
    i'm sorry i don't know a huge ammount about H2S, i can have a look though, i wouldn't have thought it'd get too bad.........
     
  8. pbfoot

    pbfoot Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2005
    Messages:
    7,636
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    niagara falls
    well those tubes would be really hot because of the power consumption alot of them were even in oil baths but I read the h2s was water cooled but i was curious how they did it
     
  9. turret boy

    turret boy New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2007
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Hi there,I have a complete fn 82 turret fitted with village inn and z equipment .I will try to copy part of the manual for you.
     
  10. k9kiwi

    k9kiwi Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2006
    Messages:
    850
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Occupation:
    Self Employed
    Location:
    Kiwi Land
    H2S was air cooled.

    The Magnetron and rotating reflector were housed in the "bump" under the fuselage, part of the electronics were inside the box structure supporting the radome and cooled by heat disipation from airflow as well.

    The display unit was mounted at the navigators position.

    H2X that replaced it was the same.

    Village Inn did not have any form of IFF capability when first issued to active duty squadrons.

    The two circles on the front windscreen were not used for IR lamps, they can be seen on any of hundreds of photos of MkI,MkII, and MkIII along with the Canadian manufactured planes that were fitted or refitted with the larger MkIII type bomb aimers blister.

    All these photos were taken in the years before Village Inn was introduced.

    Off the top of my head I can't remember the purpose but it was not as mentioned above.

    German reciever units.

    FUG 221-A “ROSENDAAL-HALBE”: Passive homing device by Siemens. This device was designed to recognize and intercept the signals of the “Monica”, “ASV” antiship, “Rosendaal,” and “Magic Box” tail-warning transmitters. It had a 100-km range and worked with 190 – 230 mHz frequencies. The “Rosendaal-Halbe” never entered mass production.

    FUG 222 “PAUKE S”: Telefunken aiming device. It worked with frequencies from 3250-3330 mHz with a range of 300 – 10,000 m. Vision range of 100 degrees horizontally and 20 degrees vertically. The device was connected to an electrical ReVi device and monitor. Only 3 apparatus were build.

    FUG 226 NEULING IFF experimental device by Lorenz. Me 262A Wrk.Nr. 170056 was equipped with this ground-to-air and air-to-air IFF device together with the FuG 218 Neptun. FUG 227 “FLENSBURG” It was a passive homing device developed by Siemens. The Flensburg could detect from a distance of 65 Kms (45 miles) the emissions of the “Monica” tail-warning radars of the RAF bombers. Production of this set began in Spring of 1944. The Flensburg antennas were installed in both the wings: at the top and bottom panels of the starboard wing tip and in the leading edge of the port wing. When on 13.7.44 the Ju 88 G-1 of 7./NJG 2 felt under Allied hands its FuG 220 and 227 sets were rapidly examined and countermeasures developed against them. Three different Ausführung with many improvements were delivered for a total of 250 apparatus.

    FUG 280 “KIEL”: The Kiel was a passive IR vision detector developed by Zeiss. It operated using lead-sulphite photocells amplified in a vision screen. Its range was about 4000 m; the unit weighed only 42 kg. Only a few devices were built.

    FuG 350 “NAXOS Z”: The Naxos was a Telefunken passive homing device similar to the FuG 227 ("Flensburg"). It was developed during the Summer of 1943. Production began in the early months of 1944 and the device entered service together with the Flensburg and remained in use until the end of the war. Unlike the Flensburg, the Naxos detected the H2S ground mapping radar (as well as the H2X, AN APS 15) instead of the Monica tail warning radar. Models I, II, and III used frequencies 82 – 84 MHz; IV, V, VI, and VII, 91 – 116 MHz. Its range was as far as 50,000 m in its best Ausführung, 10,000 in its very first versions. In whole 25 series were developed being the “Z” series the most successful with 700 apparatus built alone from “Z” to “ZR” series! The “Naxos Z” were used in Ju 88 G's in combination with the covered Morgenstern antennae because its elements could be easily installed inside the wooden nose cone or inside teardrop-shaped covers. Tests with Naxos were also carried in single-engined Me109G's (NH+VZ, for example) housed under a plexiglass dome on the second panel just behind the radio antenna mast behind the canopy.


    Source SkyLighters

    Prior to Village Inn and Monica was Fishpond, which was used from the [email protected] to the radion operators position, basically a radar return with the gain tuned to within 1,000 feet of the aircraft that would show airborne targets coming in from underneath the aircraft. Not very effective.
     
  11. k9kiwi

    k9kiwi Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2006
    Messages:
    850
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Occupation:
    Self Employed
    Location:
    Kiwi Land
    They were air vents.

    It wasn't to cool down the bombadier, it was to allow the inside temperature to equal the outside temp and reduce frosting on the inside.

    If you look in the photo below in the lower part of the flat sitting panel you will see a tube wrapping around from right to left heading towards the top of the flat panel. It has a small orange mark on it where it crosses the panel.

    It leads to an outlet pipe top dead center of the flat panel and was connected to the glycol storage tank located by the entrance steps to the bombadiers position.

    It sprayed glycol anti freeze over the flat panel ensuring it didn't freeze up.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. pbfoot

    pbfoot Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2005
    Messages:
    7,636
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    niagara falls
    I don't think Glycol is what I'd want on a piece of glass it gotta be harder to see out of then just scrapping the frost off. Was it a standard mod or just a one of
     
  13. k9kiwi

    k9kiwi Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2006
    Messages:
    850
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Occupation:
    Self Employed
    Location:
    Kiwi Land
    Standard.

    In front of the pilots windscreen were two little sticky uppy thing (great description hu :) )

    They sprayed glycol on the windscreen for the same purpose.

    Image 1 shows the spray nozell withdrawn inside and the rubber gromet it is fitted with.

    Image 2 and 3 are the pilots windscreen de-icing vents

    Image 4 shows a museum Lanc with what appears to be the clear holes in the blister.

    Image 5 shows a flying Lanc, clear to see the "holes" are now filled by the vent controls.

    Image 6 shows the Glycol tank, which formed the step down from the engineers poition to the bombadiers position.

    The De-icing for the bombadiers window was deleted in Mod 675 for the Lancaster.

    The introduction of the deeper perspex nose was introduced with Mod 780.
     

    Attached Files:

    • di1.jpg
      di1.jpg
      File size:
      84.7 KB
      Views:
      110
    • v1.jpg
      v1.jpg
      File size:
      76.1 KB
      Views:
      110
    • v2.jpg
      v2.jpg
      File size:
      55.8 KB
      Views:
      110
    • v3.jpg
      v3.jpg
      File size:
      32.7 KB
      Views:
      110
    • v4.jpg
      v4.jpg
      File size:
      50.2 KB
      Views:
      110
    • tank.jpg
      tank.jpg
      File size:
      91 KB
      Views:
      111
  14. pbfoot

    pbfoot Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2005
    Messages:
    7,636
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    niagara falls
    Are you sure it is Glycol thats anti freeze and I don't want that on the windows cuz I think it would streak
     
  15. HealzDevo

    HealzDevo Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2004
    Messages:
    1,345
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    Self-Employed
    Location:
    Queensland
    Interesting information. Keep it coming on this system...
     
  16. k9kiwi

    k9kiwi Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2006
    Messages:
    850
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Occupation:
    Self Employed
    Location:
    Kiwi Land
    Well I guess AP2062.A Volume 1 Section 11 Armament and General Equipment got it wrong then.

    The glycol was also used for when they were flying through a strange weather phenomenom called Rain. Apparently it happens a lot over Europe at 18,000 feet in winter. :rolleyes:

    But how would I know being a Kiwi and all. :lol:
     

    Attached Files:

  17. HealzDevo

    HealzDevo Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2004
    Messages:
    1,345
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    Self-Employed
    Location:
    Queensland
    Okay, interesting that point.
     
  18. BarryH

    BarryH New Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2009
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    My father was a radar technician on the Lancasters in 460 squadren - he was involved in testing the Village Inn Gun Laying system when it was first developed. A device was fitted to the other aircraft in the group so that the Village Inn could recognise them as a friend. Village Inn was so secret at this time that none of the crews on the other aircraft knew what this device was for. I understand that the system remained on the official secrets list for a long time (30 years or so) after the war
     
  19. AWF118

    AWF118 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2012
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    More info here on one of those IR-equipped Ju 88G-6's (only four, pre-service trials aircraft flown), brought to England at the end of the war, and crashed almost "before my very eyes" as Arthur Askey would have said, at Heston on 15 October 1945:

    Heston: wartime crahes and incidents - PPRuNe Forums - then much more information, including good photographs of the crashed aircraft and the "Kiel-Gerät" IR system, throughout the remainder of that thread.
     
  20. Siegfried

    Siegfried Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Messages:
    794
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #20 Siegfried, Mar 6, 2012
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2012
    Spanner I used an infrared lamp for illumination with an infrared scope
    Spanner II was supposed to be purely passive
    Spanner III used the lamp with the optics of Spanner II.

    It was a supplement to radar but for various reasons didn't work as well as hoped.

    Later in the war a far more sophisticated system called Kiel was tested, photos are available, it used an nodding/rotating mirror rossette scanning pattern in the nose of the aircraft.

    It was apparently very promising. It gave a crude immage of the target made up out of a sort of 'spiragraph' scanning pattern. Such scanning patterns are suitalbe for lock on and a similar system called "Hamburg" was to be used for homming onto shipping and aircraft. Accousitic homming was also showing promise if used from a jet against a piston engined aircraft.

    Radar directed guns such as village in became inevitable as soon as radar wavelenghts approached 3cm. A radar dish of 10 wavelengths diameter produces an adaquetly narrow beam for tracking. The initial 9cm wavelength used on British magnetrons came out of the desire to get a 15 degree wide beam from a 75cm dish that might fit into a Beuafighter. IE about 8.33 wavelengths. It also happily coincided with the dimensions of machine tools used to make revolver 'revolvers'.

    At 3cm the aerial could be as small as 25cm, in theory.

    From my understanding village in was not fully automatic, the gunner still had to track the target using a special display, though I immagine it would have automatically entered the range and lead required.

    Fully automatic might have been better, peering into a scope causes one to loose night vision.
     
Loading...

Share This Page