Wars pre 1800?

[timshatz]

So that's where it came from!? Thought we stole it from the Indians. Turns out it was the Canadians. Who woulda thunk it?

I live almost exactly between the Brandywine Battlefield and Valley Forge. Not quite in Lancaster County (about a county away) but close enough to say, "PB, Dude, Your ancestors blew it."

 

[timshatz]

Excellent. Now the negotiations

Possession is 9/10ths of the law.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

You guys could allways do a gun duel. Winner gets the land and the women!

 

[pbfoot]

Possession is 9/10ths of the law.

well could change that without much fuss I'm actually surprised no one has tried to claim damages from that period. Stats show about 1 in 10 fled the revolution about 50% came north

 

[timshatz]

You guys could allways do a gun duel. Winner gets the land and the women!

Dude! I've got the land, I've got the women! Besides, I win, I get an ice box with women looking like Grizzly Adams , well, the ones that don't come south earlier in life (Aka, Shania Twain).

And you have to keep Celine Dion too! (the whole post is worth it just to toss that part in)

 

[pbfoot]

Dude! I've got the land, I've got the women! Besides, I win, I get an ice box with women looking like Grizzly Adams , well, the ones that don't come south earlier in life (Aka, Shania Twain).

And you have to keep Celine Dion too! (the whole post is worth it just to toss that part in)

I think the weather is comparable we get a little more sun and less snow Temps are pretty close . As for the women I make mine shave once a week and Celine I have no come back except for Wayne Newton

 

[timshatz]

Wayne Newton! Mr Las Vegas! Ya' know, it's kind of unfortunate that both he and Celine ever leave that town. It suits them perfectly. But I digress.

Ok, Wayne is definitely the result of 100 million men and 100 million women having kids, one of them is going to be....Wayne Newton. Not sure what that means but that same situation will also produce:

-Pee Wee Herman
-Nick Lachey
-Paris Hilton
-Rosie Odonell
-Micheal Jackson
-any of the Baldwin Brothers.

Law of large numbers has some really nasty side affects.

 

[Emac44]

Can name 2 wars before the American Revoluntary War which tie in greatly. More so 2 Rebellions both Jacobites 1715 and 1745. Both had Loyalists and Rebels but the lines of who was who and which families (Clans) took part is skewed and for what reasons. For example you had Clan Families with more than one or two persons on either side of the fence posts so to speak politically wise etc. But basically you had 3 major Clans fighting of control in the Highlands. Stewarts (Stuarts) MacDonalds (no not the burger giant) and Campbells with other Clans with alligencies to any of the aforementioned at any one time and baring in mind these alligencies could and did go back many centuries well before King MacAlpin who was a legendary King of Scotland (long before William Wallace). These family ties could be of marriage or guardianship or even by birth of one brother to another. Simply put by blood kinship. Which makes trying to sort out why politcally very difficult to do so. And added to the mix England sticking its 2 cents in plus what is known as the French Alliance( Old Alliance) for example some Clans came originally from Normandy or France itself. Like the Bruce Clan and the Stewarts for example and the Old Alliance with France came into play as well.

But the calling out of the Clans was an amazing feat. What would occur for example if the Clan Chieftan wanted to turn out his Clansmen for battle he would send a runner across the part of the Highland he controlled with a burning cross which was a symbol for all Clansmen to gather to the Chieftan's Standard at a predetermined time and place. In this process literally hundreds if not thousands of Clansmen in an Army could be raised in a relatively short time if the process called for more than just an inter Clan battle etc.

After 1745/6 the power of the Clans was broken and many a Clansman and his families were either jailed, executed or hunted down and killed, or even transported to such places as North America (Canada Or the Carolinas or Antigua) and many of which became rebels again in the War of Independance in the US or became Loyalists in either Canada or the US. Add to this after 1745 up until the early 1800s came what is known as the Clearnaces of the Highlands as well which fuelled many more Scots into the US and Canada over that 50 to 60 year period. Basically the Clearnaces of the Highlands came about when the Old Clan Chieftans decided that raising sheep and cattle on the Land was more profitable then raising of oats by Clansmen and families. These parcels of lands were called Crofts hence where the name Crofters comes from. With former Jacobites and now Crofters in the new world of the Americas from 1745 to the 1800s came a ready supply of either rebels or loyalists depending on which side of the border you was on in either Canada or the new USA. But putting politics to one side what appealled to the Scots was LAND. And Land meant power and wealth. Argiculture and farming played a significant role in the minds of the Scots in the NEW WORLD and it didn't matter who owned the LAND previously for example in the various North American Indian Tribes. (But the same can be said about the reasons Scots migrated to Australia and New Zealand as well, basically the same process occured in Australia and New Zealand). My own family came from this ideology as well. My family originally comes from the Island of Skye and had kinship with the MacDonalds of Skye and Clan MacLeod of Skye. Yes my family were also Jacobites in both rebellions of 1715 and 1745 and had lands in Skye Iona and Mull. The family is also linked to another story from Jacobite times in 1745 to that of the escape of Bonnie Prince Charlie back to France after the rebellion failed. He gave to my Clan a gift for services to the Stewart Cause which can still be obtained today. The gift was called Drambuie and was given to family Clan members who managed to smuggle Prince Charley by boat back to France. This was some time afterwards when Flora MacDonald of the Clan MacDonald of Skye helped Prince Charles to escape. If by this stage you are thinking of the song Speed Bonnie Boat it is quiet possible that members of the Clan I belong to had a hand in the smuggling of Prince Charles on that particular boat the song evolves around.

But that is getting of the point. Many Scots took part in the War of Independance in the USA but also took part in the Battles for Canada so hence the tie in with both Canada and US, Prior during and afterwards. And again the decendants of these Scots in the USA took part in the American Civil War on both the sides of the North and the South.

And going back further to Scotland the forming of Regiments of Scots came from the 1600s through to the 1800s. For example these Regiments could and did form parts of the British Army or a Police Force of the Highlands depending who had raised the Regiments and for what purpose. Regiments like the King's Own Scottish Borderers (KOSBIES) The Gordon Highlanders ,Argyle and Sutherland Highlanders. Royal Scots Dragoon Guards or the Scot's Guards, The Scot's Greys, The Black Watch Regiments all or formed or were incorporated into the Military of both Scotland and England for various purposes for the Crown. The Crown could just as easily be that of Stewart or Orange as that of King George 1 2 and 3 etc. The Duke of Cumberland William of Orange had a particular name given to him by the Clansmen after 1745. He was called STINKING BILLY a noxious weed that was found in Scotland. But the ties in with what occured in North America during the Revoluntary War has its tie in with the Jacobites and The Clearances of Scotland if you look further into it

 

[Emac44]

Of course as you know. Each Clan had its own traditional lands Chieftan or Laird etc. Each Family had not only the Chieftan or Laird but also Family Sept Names to each Clan and these could number depending on the size of the Clan in question. For example the Chieftan of the Isles MacDonald could have at least 10 or 15 Clansman Sept names under the MacDonald Banner or Chief etc. And each Clan had its own Tartan made up of a blend of different weaves blended into the wool and weave of that Tartan. For example a dark green wool weave could signify a certain make up of the family Tartan. Say for arguement sake that the Dark Green Wool Weave signified the marriage of Fiona Stewart of Balbane to Chieftan Alexander MacDonald of Mull. The blending of the 2 weaves in the marriage making up another part of the Tartan and the Weave etc. Then of course most Clans had their own Motto Heraldary Symbols War Cries Shields and Standards. And Highland Clans also had their own of behaviour and set rules. They difinitely had their own Language Celtic Gael of the Scots Their own Religion, Universities and other seats of Learning Their own Nobility seperate from England Ireland and Wales.

The Highlands of course were different not only geographically speaking to that of the Lowlands but also in some cases a different physcological make up to each other in as such the Highlanders spoke the Gael and practised the Clanship were the Lowlanders were more adjusted to that of say Northern England. The problem the English had with understanding the Highlanders was one of specifics. The English viewed Highland Scotland as it is seen geographically on a map. For example looking at whole of Scotland as one would read a map of the entire United Kingdom. This is a problem as the Highlands have to be literally turned on its axis with the Outer and Inner Hebridies at the bottom of the map and you gaze towards Europe. Which means looking at Scotland from West to East. The Highlands traditional thinking to the Highland Scot begins in the Western Islands of Scotland with the power base resting with the Lord of the Isles Chieftan Clan MacDonald or the Clan Donald of Skye. And that is where quiet numerous problems occur with the English dealing with the Clans. They look upon some one like Robert the Bruce as being King of Scotland Or James Stewart etc. But he is King yes but the power base in the Highlands came from one or 2 or even 3 Clan Families in the Highlands and rivalary accordingly. There was an old Clanic saying in Scotland " There is no joy without Clan Donald". And the importance of these Clan Families in Scotland was the formation of Scottish Warrior Clansman Farmer and the make up of the families in Highland Scotland.

For example one historian regarded that the Scottish Clans in their structure could be compared with the Mafia Families of Sicily in the make up of the family etc. Lowlanders if venturing into the Highlands for business or family reasons often signed their will before entering the Highlands or so its is reported. The Highlands in themselves could be regarded like entering Indian Territory of Western USA. But this does not bring into account that each Clan had its own courtesy and behaviour. For example if a Chieftan from one Clan was to visit another. No weapons were to be worn except maybe a Skeen Dhu. Claymores Dirks Pistols Targes had to be left say for example on a table at the main door of hall where the visitation was taking place. And all courtesy was extended to each one and other. Hospitality was a main stay of the Clans to each other in these events.

The Chieftan or Laird was like any other Vassal Lord. He was the Strong Man of the area and demanded loyalty via blood kinship and oath from those under him. At times he was the only law and order around and could execute imprison or hold for ransom any one he decided was fit for his displeasure. But he could also give alligence to say for example the Crown or one of the larger Clans depending on circumstances of the day. Banditry was also a problem as various Clans would raid each other and blood fueds arose from this banditry. Cattle stealing was a problem as cattle meant wealth. But the blood fueds could and did occur from insults or slights to other family members from time to time or a killing unlawful or lawful had occured. Its little wonder why the Lowlanders felt unsafe in the Highlands.

In retrospect as well the Waterways around the Western Islands of Scotland were also areas of trade from Textiles Minerals Alcohol Barley all types of Grain Malt Cattle Sheep and other livestock and most importantly transportation of people to and from the Islands to the Mainland. And of course the spread of influence by the Major Clans Education and Christianity etc. Hence why the English failed to understand the significance of the Western Highland Chiefs into Scotland.

Now most people today have a romantic type of tingly touchy feeling about Scotland. Most have seen Brave Heart with Mel Gibson. To say the movie was historically inaccurate would be an understatement. Yes there was a William Wallace yes he was Scottish but no he wasn't a Highlander. Wallace came from around Paisely or the Glasgow area of Scotland as best as some historians believe. He studied it appears around the time of the 13th Century in one of the Monastries set up in Scotland. From what I understand Wallace came from a quiet well to do moderately well off family at the time who owed alliegence to the Stewarts. Wallace was also quiet well educated by the standard of the day. And no he wasn't quiet the Bobbin Boy Gibson Protrays him as in the movie. He also was not likely to have had a romantic interlude with the Princess of Wales as suggested in the movie. As the Princess of Wales at the time was only 3 years old just prior to Wallace's execution. But also there were Clans clammering for promince in the Lowlands as well from Bruce Stewart Baiols and several other families at the time. Wallace by all means is a figure of intrigue and one of enduring freedom in Scotland but there were others and not just Robert the Bruce who in 1314 at the Battle of Bannock Burn defeated Edward 11s Army but it wasn't until some 7 to 8 years later after this battle that England finally recognised the right of Scotland to independance. There were such figures as the real life Rob Roy MacGregor a Highlander from the Clan of MacGregor. He was some what of a bandit come tax collector until he fell out of favour with the Lord Chief Justice who if I remember was a Campbell over debts MacGregor owed and a fair amount of skullduggery came about due to this.

Scotland can be seen as the type of romantic place with the idea of the Scottish Clansman with Claymore Kilt Targe Dirk at the ready with Bag Pipe Music and Drums playing in the back ground etc and the Clansman ready to do battle etc. But Scotland of course is more than that and I have just given a short convuluted history of such. Scotland means THE BLOOD IS STRONG and effects those of us with Celtic Scottish Blood in different ways. The BLOOD OF SCOTLAND can call in a variety of different ways. from Family and the Clanship our Heritage to our Language( long lost in most) Calls to our mind set and it calls us HOME. It calls to us by the MUSIC and to the HISTORY of SCOTLAND. But mostly it calls to our WARLIKE CELTIC NATURE and this is shared both with Lowlanders and Highlanders in equal proportions.

It is no small wonder why Scots played very significant roles in North America Australia and New Zealand. In particular in North America with Canada and the US after the rebellions in Scotland with Scots taking up arms against or for the Crown in the New World of North America

 

[Njaco]

Nice post Emac.

 

[Emac44]

Nice post Emac.

Thanks Scotland as you could imagine is one my all time favourite subjects. Sorry to get of from the thread that was began, but felt compelled to type why Scots were in the Americas and why they took part etc

 

[renrich]

E-Mac, good post, thank you. In fact, the Scotch-Irish as they have come to be called played a major role in the fomenting of the American Revolution. When those groups came to America they carried with them the hatred caused by the persecution of those ethnic groups during the centuries before the American Revolution by the English. In fact the friction between the Scotch-Irish and the English was still in evidence in 1860 and was a contributing factor to the War Between the States. The first Scotch-Irish president was Andrew Jackson and he helped found the Democrat Party.

 

[pbfoot]

Just took a look at the list of loyalists and there seems to be lots of Scots judging by surname including mine . In retrospect it looks like the Sunnis vs S'hia death and mayhem if you weren't part of the mob. In the pivotal battle of Yorktown French troops outnumbered Americans 3to 1
http://www.uelac.org/PDF/loyalist.pdf

 

[mkloby]

Just took a look at the list of loyalists and there seems to be lots of Scots judging by surname including mine . In retrospect it looks like the Sunnis vs S'hia death and mayhem if you weren't part of the mob. In the pivotal battle of Yorktown French troops outnumbered Americans 3to 1
http://www.uelac.org/PDF/loyalist.pdf

The Scot blood in me comes from Roy - the Robertson clan. What about you???

 

[pbfoot]

The Scot blood in me comes from Roy - the Robertson clan. What about you???

Stewart same as my surname

 

[Njaco]

The first documented source of Scots in the new world comes from the Saga of Eric the Red and the Viking expedition to Vinland, modern Newfoundland in 1010AD. Viking prince Thorfinn Karlsefni led an expedition to Vinland (the land of wine) and took with him 160 Viking men, three ships, and two Scottish slaves, a man named Haki and a woman named Hekja, who were reputed to be as swift or faster than a deer at running. When the long boats moored along the coast, they sent the slaves ashore to run along the waterfront to gauge whether it was safe for the rest of the crew to follow. After the Scots survived a day of baiting for potential foes (native or animal), the Vikings deemed it safe to spend the night ashore. The expedition was abandoned three years later; the original sagas were passed on in an oral tradition and then written down 250 years later. The sagas demonstrate how daring and pioneering Viking culture was at the turn of the first millennium and are open to considerable breadth of interpretation.

An apocryphal voyage in 1398 by a captain named Zichmni, believed to be Henry I Sinclair, Earl of Orkney, who was of joint Norse-Scottish title and family, is also claimed to have reached Atlantic Canada as well as New England.

The first attempts in earnest to entice Scottish settlers to Canada began as early as 1622, when Sir William Alexander obtained permission from King James VI of Scotland (James I of England) to establish new Scotland or Nova Scotia. Only a small number of Scottish families settled in Canada, however, prior to the conquest of New France in 1759. Those who did make a home on Canadian soil were Highlanders who sought political and religious asylum following the failed Jacobite uprisings in Scotland in 1715 and 1745.

Those immigrants who arrived after 1759 were mainly Highland farmers who had been forced off their rented land or "crofts" due to the Highland Clearances (Scottish Gaelic: Fuadaich nan Gàidheal) to make way for sheep grazing. Most of these Scots settled in what is now the Atlantic coast. A large groups of Ulster Scots, many of whom had first settled in New Hampshire, moved to Truro, Nova Scotia, in 1761. Their descendants have provided many of the country's leading justices, statesmen, clergymen, businessmen and scholars. In 1772 a wave of Scots began to arrive in Prince Edward Island. In 1773 the little brig Hector brought 200 Scots to Pictou, starting a new stream of Highland emigration. To this day the town's slogan is "The Birthplace of New Scotland". At the end of the 18th century Cape Breton Island became a centre of Scottish settlement where only Scottish Gaelic was spoken.

Some info about the early wars.

The northern English colonies increased the competitive pressure on New France for control of the fur trade and other commerce on the Great Lakes and along the upper Mississippi valley. In response, the French built new forts on the Great Lakes and hastened their plans to settle the Mississippi River valley and "Louisiana." With the outbreak of war in Europe between France and England in 1689, the competition in North America escalated into a subsidiary war.* Although the English colonial population far surpassed the French in North America—250,000 to 12,000 in 1682—the competitive edge lay not with numbers but with alliances, strategy, and execution. After eight years of attacks and counterattacks, however, the French and English negotiated a fragile peace in 1697, neither side the victor.

The strategic center of the war was Albany, New York, situated 150 miles due north of Manhattan and 225 miles due south of Montreal, the fur trading center of New France. This north-south line along the Hudson River marked the boundary at the time between the New England colonies and Iroquois territory to the west. "Albany's fur trade competition," writes historian Alan Taylor, "merged into both the imperial rivalry between England and France for commercial dominance and the Iroquois' struggle to maintain their edge in a violent and disrupted world of native peoples" For the Indians are the third major party in this war. The Iroquois allied with the English and the Algonquian with the French, all anxiously aware that their fates had become inextricably linked.

French-English in Northeast, American Beginnings: 1492-1690, Primary Resources in U.S. History and Literature, Toolbox Library, National Humanities Center

 

[Emac44]

E-Mac, good post, thank you. In fact, the Scotch-Irish as they have come to be called played a major role in the fomenting of the American Revolution. When those groups came to America they carried with them the hatred caused by the persecution of those ethnic groups during the centuries before the American Revolution by the English. In fact the friction between the Scotch-Irish and the English was still in evidence in 1860 and was a contributing factor to the War Between the States. The first Scotch-Irish president was Andrew Jackson and he helped found the Democrat Party.

Renrich we are Scots or of Scottish decent etc. Scotch is what you drink another name for WHISKY. You call a person from Ireland Irish man or woman etc etc. You call a person from Scotland Scottish or Scotsman or Scotswoman. Not SCOTCH ok. Sorry for being picky but I don't pour very well into a tumbler glass ok. Thank you for your comment about my post and I am sorry if I seem picky but I was brought up to know I come from a Scottish Family not a Scotch one ok

 

[timshatz]

Emac, not to be picky either but around here (Mid-Altantic States of the US) that gets used by the Scotch all the time. Scottish is used a single decendent, Scotch-whatever is used for multiple. And everybody around here is a multiple.

 

[Emac44]

Emac, not to be picky either but around here (Mid-Altantic States of the US) that gets used by the Scotch all the time. Scottish is used a single decendent, Scotch-whatever is used for multiple. And everybody around here is a multiple.

Multiple what precisely Tim? But as I said Tim SCOTCH is a drink to be A SCOT OR SCOTTISH is far from being a liquidified quantity

 

[Njaco]

Emac, I can vouch for Tim that its just a mannerism in the Northeast, instead of Scot we say Scotch. No harm intended. Kinda like we say Canadian Goose instead of Canada Goose (proper name). Its a wonder people understand what we're saying! We never go to the beach but we love going to the shore!!