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Wild_Bill_Kelso
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- Mar 18, 2022
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The German Fliegerkorps X was moved out of Sicily in April 1941 to take part in the Invasion of Greece and get ready for the the invasion of Russia. Fliegerkorps X stayed and took part in Crete and then stayed and engaged in long range dueling with the DAF through 1942 and into 1943.
It is about 240 miles from Crete to Tobruk so just about all of the German raids in the eastern Med were from Fliegerkorps X. Including mining the Suez and torpedo attacks on the eastern convoys, etc. However the distance is too far for 109s even with drop tanks.
Fliegerkorps X too often sat on their hands but then the command structure was one of the convoluted Italian/Med things and Fliegerkorps X was not in the chain of command of the Africa Korps. The Germans were not that good at moving commands around. It sometimes took around 8 weeks to move a Fliegerkorps from the Russian front to Italy and another 8 weeks to move it back.
Up until mid 1942 the Germans were relying a lot on the kind of uneven victories they were winning in early 1942. They needed to have that edge, because yes they were often outnumbered (though not as heavily as they sometimes make out). Once the Allies reached near parity in air combats and made it harder for the Germans to play their game, suddenly the prospects for the Luftwaffe dimmed and with it, the Afrika Korps, while the DAF and 8th Army went in the other direction.
From reading this thread I ask this: Was the Allied resupply of aircraft / parts / pilots so overwhelming that it almost didn't matter what JG27 did? Earlier we were counting kills, but reading Rommels synopsis, and what was posted as to logistical imbalances, that the end was almost a forgone conclusion from the get go. Shoot down five of my planes and I will replace them with 10 today, and 20 next month. However, I drop 5 of your planes and you may replace them but don't have enough of them to begin with even without bringing fuel into the discourse.Part of the British problem from Dec 1941 through June/July of 1942 was that a lot of their planned aircraft replacements were siphoned off to India and Burma/Australia. British did an excellent job of recovering, repairing and getting damaged aircraft back into service to keep numbers up. They had a number of trucks and crews that would strip every airframe they could from the airfields and take them back to rear areas to be repaired at central facilities instead of trying to piece things together at local airfields. However this took dedicated trucks, crews and fuel.
One of the problems the Germans had was that as good as JG 27 was, it couldn't be everywhere. And where it wasn't the the British were pounding the crap out of the German targets. Germans didn't have enough AA guns either.
The British took losses (in some cases due to bad tactics) but more often than not JG 27 could not stop the British from doing what they wanted to do, even if they shot down more British planes than the Germans lost. The Germans (and Italians) lost an awful lot of planes on the ground.
British had a number of radar units that were mobile and they shuffled them forward and back as the front lines shifted which gave them better warning as to German raids and cut way down on flying standing patrols over the front line troops or road convoys so that engine hours and fuel use was going into something more productive.
Sort of, the number totals (including bombers and recon planes) were often over 1000 per side (Germans and Italians together) but after just a few months (or weeks?) hundreds were lost or at least out of service. The Axis often had around a 50% serviceability rate. If you don't have spare parts or enough ground crewmen it doesn't matter if "Purple 6" is rated at less than 40% damaged or not when it lands, your crews can't fix planes that are 20% damaged.From reading this thread I ask this: Was the Allied resupply of aircraft / parts / pilots so overwhelming that it almost didn't matter what JG27 did? Earlier we were counting kills, but reading Rommels synopsis, and what was posted as to logistical imbalances, that the end was almost a forgone conclusion from the get go. Shoot down five of my planes and I will replace them with 10 today, and 20 next month. However, I drop 5 of your planes and you may replace them but don't have enough of them to begin with even without bringing fuel into the discourse.
Thanks for the answer. It appears the water was rising (Allied forces) and there wasn't much that in the end could be done. The Germans from reading this thread, just didn't have their collective sh!t in one sock (Chain of Command, Logistics, CnC, Air Power, ETC.) The Allies appeared to be playing the long game, and the Germans were more, "we can do this if...).Sort of, the number totals (including bombers and recon planes) were often over 1000 per side (Germans and Italians together) but after just a few months (or weeks?) hundreds were lost or at least out of service. The Axis often had around a 50% serviceability rate. If you don't have spare parts or enough ground crewmen it doesn't matter if "Purple 6" is rated at less than 40% damaged or not when it lands, your crews can't fix planes that are 20% damaged.
The British were perfectly happy to make airfield raids one of their top priorities. To heck with the "Knights in the sky" crap. They were just as happy blowing the crap out of the airfields with 500lb bombs. Then attack the the supply routes, ship traffic, harbors, railroad if there was one, truck convoys on the road/s. supply dumps. Whatever it took to reduce the number of Axis aircraft in the sky when the ground troops actually were fighting each other. Then the tactical front line bombing and intercepting the enemy tactical bombers could start.
British fighters also intercepted (or tried) German bomber raids on rear areas. They weren't giving up and letting them do it.
The British had a much better C2 system and a much better intelligence system. They had their share of Army officers who wanted their own personal air force flying over their heads at all times but the British DAF leaders stopped that pretty quick. If they put the work into bombing airfields and supply routes then when the German aircraft showed up the British (with the aid of radar) could often meet them and stop them. The Dessert was harsh environment and engines lasted a much shorter time than in Europe. Flying routine patrols used up engines, fuel and exhausted pilots. Americans went through the same nonsense in operation Torch, each division commander wanted his own personnel air force flying top cover and ground attack just for his division. It was stopped or not put into place but the Americans did not have the C2 system that the British did, and did not have the number of radars to provide warnings, and did not have the repair organization.
Germans only had a few radars, and they weren't very mobile. Just like a lot of things, once Rommel started chasing a retreating British force he left a lot of things behind.
British problem was that any/most replacement aircraft had to come over the Takodari to Cairo air route
View attachment 702438
or stage through Malta or go around South Africa. Most of the big parts, fuel and ammo for the army went around as did all but VIP troops.
The Germans had their problems but the British had delivery times of weeks (well over a month)from when stuff was actually shipped (not promised) to when it got there.
The Germans did mine the Suez Canal the Red Sea on occasion but not very consistently.
The British were trying to maximize their air power effectiveness if every area when it was needed as it was needed.
Hope that helps.
From reading this thread I ask this: Was the Allied resupply of aircraft / parts / pilots so overwhelming that it almost didn't matter what JG27 did? Earlier we were counting kills, but reading Rommels synopsis, and what was posted as to logistical imbalances, that the end was almost a forgone conclusion from the get go. Shoot down five of my planes and I will replace them with 10 today, and 20 next month. However, I drop 5 of your planes and you may replace them but don't have enough of them to begin with even without bringing fuel into the discourse.
Of course this is only from an AirPower centric point of view (I know there was more to winning than that alone).
Nice to see the Swordfish getting a mention.And as I've pointed out a bunch of times, the supply problems the Axis had was largely to do with vastly improved strategy, tactics, and aircraft being used by the Allies. Sinking his supply ships.
Fuel didn't need to go around the Cape of Good Hope.Sort of, the number totals (including bombers and recon planes) were often over 1000 per side (Germans and Italians together) but after just a few months (or weeks?) hundreds were lost or at least out of service. The Axis often had around a 50% serviceability rate. If you don't have spare parts or enough ground crewmen it doesn't matter if "Purple 6" is rated at less than 40% damaged or not when it lands, your crews can't fix planes that are 20% damaged.
The British were perfectly happy to make airfield raids one of their top priorities. To heck with the "Knights in the sky" crap. They were just as happy blowing the crap out of the airfields with 500lb bombs. Then attack the the supply routes, ship traffic, harbors, railroad if there was one, truck convoys on the road/s. supply dumps. Whatever it took to reduce the number of Axis aircraft in the sky when the ground troops actually were fighting each other. Then the tactical front line bombing and intercepting the enemy tactical bombers could start.
British fighters also intercepted (or tried) German bomber raids on rear areas. They weren't giving up and letting them do it.
The British had a much better C2 system and a much better intelligence system. They had their share of Army officers who wanted their own personal air force flying over their heads at all times but the British DAF leaders stopped that pretty quick. If they put the work into bombing airfields and supply routes then when the German aircraft showed up the British (with the aid of radar) could often meet them and stop them. The Dessert was harsh environment and engines lasted a much shorter time than in Europe. Flying routine patrols used up engines, fuel and exhausted pilots. Americans went through the same nonsense in operation Torch, each division commander wanted his own personnel air force flying top cover and ground attack just for his division. It was stopped or not put into place but the Americans did not have the C2 system that the British did, and did not have the number of radars to provide warnings, and did not have the repair organization.
Germans only had a few radars, and they weren't very mobile. Just like a lot of things, once Rommel started chasing a retreating British force he left a lot of things behind.
British problem was that any/most replacement aircraft had to come over the Takodari to Cairo air route
View attachment 702438
or stage through Malta or go around South Africa. Most of the big parts, fuel and ammo for the army went around as did all but VIP troops.
The Germans had their problems but the British had delivery times of weeks (well over a month)from when stuff was actually shipped (not promised) to when it got there.
The Germans did mine the Suez Canal the Red Sea on occasion but not very consistently.
The British were trying to maximize their air power effectiveness if every area when it was needed as it was needed.
Hope that helps.
There were more Albacores than Swordfish operating in Malta & Egypt in this period.Nice to see the Swordfish getting a mention.
Good to know I am the problem again. It is really not that complicated from my end. You appear to only have access to the Shores Et. Al. book to figure out losses. Therefore that list must be used and considered correct. Even enhanced. The gap between what the book says and the air force records say was lost 8 February is ignored. Not used an example of verifying what the references are reporting.You are struggling with basic concepts. It's really not that complicated.
On the basis of the above all loss lists are a waste of time. Instead I read it as Shores list, end of story, if the book says crash landed it equals loss.Getting into what the ultimate fate of a plane which was shot down or crash landed ultimately was can become a huge and open-ended endeavor, and you will find that you can't always determine what happened to a given aircraft. If you try to do this for say, an entire year of air combat you are going to be spending weeks figuring it out. There can also be a fine line between shot down and crash landed. Crash landed doesn't necessarily mean at the friendly base, for example, or that the aircraft was recovered. Sometimes it was, sometimes it wasn't.
The spreadsheet I posted has such data by month for the Allies. Thanks for the interest. The file I am working from also has non combat losses. Your criteria is mentioned in Shores, less those with a couple of key words, you have zero idea of what the Shores criteria are or how complete that data is. To use every entry in Shores means you are comfortable all aircraft damaged enough not to fly again for 2 to 3 days (and maybe available earlier than that) are recorded for all units on both sides.You seem to have access to the data, if you want to make your own list and only count aircraft listed as shot down, or shot down + MiA + FTR, by all means feel free to do so, and post it as an alternative to mine. I'd be interested to see the numbers. I do not think the ratios will be any different. I stated what my criteria were at the outset, and I used consistent criteria. I think that is the most effective way to use the data based on the discussion at hand.
Nice list, seems to have been drawn from the post war allied studies, which have 465 Italian ships of over 500 GRT listed by name and even more German. HMA if you can go through all the pages has allied submarine attacks.List of Italian shipping lost 1940-43
The Bf110 versus the Beaufighter was not that uneven.the relatively ineffectiveness of the Bf 110 as a day time fighter.
Bragadin notes different figures, April to October 1942, 0.78%, 7.24%, 22.14%, 6.45%, 33.03%, 20%, 44.2%. Remembering of course ships were lost sailing both ways.In April and May, while the Luftwaffe controlled the central Mediterranean, Axis convoys lost only 2.7 and 5.8 percent, respectively, of their tonnage during the passage to Libya. In June, losses shot up to 35 percent. The Axis did slightly better in July as the Luftwaffe made an unsuccessful attempt to reverse Malta's revival. In August, 35 percent of supplies did not reach Libya. In September the total was 30 percent. In October more than 50 percent, including most of the fuel, went to the bottom."
According to Australian Archives AWM66 109. Percentage of loss on African Convoy routes due to naval action April to October 1942, 100.00, 100.00, 27.28, 25.72, 51.42, 31.76, 37.02, 25.26, which of course can be calculated from the spreadsheet already given, but not used."I'd say this is a pretty categorical support of what I've been saying about a pivot point in mid 1942, and drastic increase in losses of fuel and supplies for the Germans, directly attributable to Allied air attacks, although we still need to look at what percentage was due to submarines."
So how many vehicles and how many units qualify for most heavily hit?"After Rommel called off the offensive on 3 September, strike aircraft harried the German withdrawal, making ten raids comprising 1u80 aircraft. Heavy night bombing followed. Vehicles, artillery, and antiaircraft positions suffered heavy damage. The most heavily hit units lost almost all of their vehicles."
I'd say this once again underscores the devastating, decisive impact of DAF air strikes.
You are correct, sorry.Fuel didn't need to go around the Cape of Good Hope.
Also the many RAF bombers used in the anti-shipping role in the theatre, Beauforts, Beaufighters etc.There were more Albacores than Swordfish operating in Malta & Egypt in this period.
Yes. My reference to the Swordfish was way before Alamein but has an impact due to the nine month period where theyThere were more Albacores than Swordfish operating in Malta & Egypt in this period.
Yes. My reference to the Swordfish was way before Alamein but has an impact due to the nine month period where they
accounted for the average of 50,000 tons sunk per month. This flowed on as there were far less ships available to transport
anything and the tonnage lost included vehicles for transporting supplies by land.
Axis supplies were precarious well before Alamein due to these losses.
For example, Italian merchant shipping in 1941 had a tonnage loss of 617986 gross tons from vessels over 500 tons. The Swordfish
contingent based on Malta was responsible for at least 450,000 tons. Those ships and what they carried were lost which is the flow on
into 1942. To that can be added the damage done to naval combat vessels.
The Swordfish is one the most 'decisive' aircraft of the North African campaigns.
You need to be careful with that analysis because plans kept changing and Britain had responsibilities extending far beyond Egypt/Libya which was what the DAF were involved with.Part of the British problem from Dec 1941 through June/July of 1942 was that a lot of their planned aircraft replacements were siphoned off to India and Burma/Australia. British did an excellent job of recovering, repairing and getting damaged aircraft back into service to keep numbers up. They had a number of trucks and crews that would strip every airframe they could from the airfields and take them back to rear areas to be repaired at central facilities instead of trying to piece things together at local airfields. However this took dedicated trucks, crews and fuel.