Was the Mosquito the worlds first stealth aircraft?

delcyros said:

The usual snorkel coat was not anti sonar but anti - radar.

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Hi delycos
Agreed, but what's your point? I never mentioned the topic of rubber coated snorkels , but rubber coated sbmarines...so anti sonar.
A rubber coated snorkel wouldn't be difficult to envisage or create, a rubber coated sub something else!

JoeB said:

A missing piece here (seems to be, unless it's way back in the thread, sorry to repeat if so) the power relationship between target radar cross section (RCS) and detection range for a given radar. The detection range varies as the fourth power of the RCS. IOW halving the RCS cuts detection range by only 15%; you need a 99% reduction in RCS to cut detection range by 68%, 99.99% to cut it 90%. You just can't get that kind of reduction by accident of simple choice of material (and in only part of the plane!) or of general shape. As was said, just a screw head sticking out a little somewhere could ruin a really meaningful reduction in detection range, and the computational and testing tools for true VLO design didn't exist. Even when the F-117 was designed those tools were cruder than when B-2 and F-22 were.


Joe

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Joe, very impressive discussion on radar detection. Have you worked on any radar development programs? In my last four years at Northrop Grumman I was fortunate to work on the Multipurpose Radar Technology Program, MP-RTIP. I was not a radar guru by any means. My expertise was really in Controls and Displays but on MP-RTIP I worked the systems integration. We were teamed with Northrop Gurmman Radar (old Westinghouse) and Raytheon (old Hughes). As primary systems integration, our primary job was to get our two radar teams to work together (they were archenemies). It was certainly a pleasure to work with some of the greatest radar talent in the world.

Here are a couple of site on MP-RTIP, if you are interested.

http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/ASD/brochures/airborne/MP-RTIP.pdf

Multi-Platform Radar Technology Insertion Program

Seawitch said:

Hi delycos
Agreed, but what's your point? I never mentioned the topic of rubber coated snorkels , but rubber coated sbmarines...so anti sonar.
A rubber coated snorkel wouldn't be difficult to envisage or create, a rubber coated sub something else!

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Sorry seawitch, I didn´t adressed You but the referred webpage. The picture shows an AR-covered snorkel but was placed in the Alberich text. It actually belongs to the lower "Tarnmatte" text.

best regards,

Seawitch
The anti sonar coating that I think you are referring to was tried a number of times by the Germans during the war. In the end it was only put on around 10 submarines ranging from a type II boat to a Type XXI in a period from 1940 to 1945.

The main problem with it was that it used to peel off at sea and flap. This caused a fair amount of noise and also slowed the submarine down.

what about the ME163? just wondering what its radar sig would have been, especially the glider

eddie_brunette said:

what about the ME163? just wondering what its radar sig would have been, especially the glider

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Just looking at it in simplistic manner, it appears to be much cleaner than any other WWII aircraft with no inlets and very small exhaust and blended design. However, without understanding the radar beam interaction with the curvature of the aircraft and other aspects, one cannot say for certain what an aircraft is capable of in regards to avoiding detection.

Seawitch said:

Was the Mosquito the worlds first stealth aircraft? I've had it put to me like that a few times, which is why I'm asking.
Much has been made of it's low Radar signature courtesy plywood construction and other things like rubber block suspension and radiators within the wings.
But was this much by accident than design, there were plenty of good wood and canvas aircraft about surely?
Your thoughts?

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If not the first, probably one of the first.
However, I do remember hearing about a French plane during the first world war that used a transparent "eisenglass" like material to cover the frame...thus, at altitude, it seemed "invisible".
Along with the Mossy, the russians had a bi-plane (Polikarpov PO-2) that they used with great efficiency around that time, that also relied on a bit of "stealth" technology...or rather, Stealth tactics.
There was a famous squadron consisting of female pilots known as "The Night Witches", which performed night time bombing raids on the invading germans.
What they did was fly in slow (because it wasn't exactly a fast airplane), then as they approached the target, they shut their engines off and would glide the planes in.
This allowed them to get close to the target, drop their bombs, then restart the engines and leave.
From what I understand, the Gerry's were always caught off guard.

Here's a link that discusses The Night Witches



Elvis

Elvis said:

However, I do remember hearing about a French plane during the first world war that used a transparent "eisenglass" like material to cover the frame...thus, at altitude, it seemed "invisible".

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I don't know of the French aircraft, but the Germans produced the 'transparent' Cellon covered Linke-Hofmann R I of 1917 which was suppose to be invisible, but wasn't.

Stealth of a different kind(?) Lockheed's QT-2/X-26/YO-3 series of 'quiet' reconnaissance aircraft. Said to "make a gentle rustling sound, like leaves in a slight breeze at a height of 400ft, and almost impossible to detect at 800ft."