Washes and filters over enamels

Discussion in 'Painting Questions, Tutorials and Guidebooks' started by Totalize, Nov 18, 2013.

  1. Totalize

    Totalize Well-Known Member

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    I use primarily acrylics for my painting of models and so have used oil paints and enamels for washes and filters to do my weathering. This may be a silly question but if you use enamel based paints as the primary paint do you have to use an acrylic based medium for washes and filters? I haven't really tried this but I suspect any type of oil/enamel based thinning agent would also take the primary enamel paint off with it.

    Thanks,
    Dave.
     
  2. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    A general rule is that an acrylic based thinning agent over oil/enamel one. Never conversely.
     
  3. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    I agree. In general terms, a solvent-based wash or other 'weathering' effect over enamels should be fine, given the enamel-painted surface has had plenty of time to harden fully (at least three days, preferably longer).
    But never a solvent-based wash over acrylics.
    Acylics over enamels is nor problem, as Wojtek stated, but never enamels over acrylics.
    That said, I have sometimes used a very 'mild' weathering effect, using enamels, over acrylic varnish, once the latter has fully hardened, but this has been very small areas, and applied with great care.
     
  4. Crimea_River

    Crimea_River Well-Known Member

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    I've had success with artist oils thinned with paint thinner washed over Future, which is an acrylic. But as Terry said, it needs to be fully cured.
     
  5. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    I agree with that above. While these artist oils work with oil/enamels colours very good , applying on the acrylic background requires the full hardening of it.
     
  6. Totalize

    Totalize Well-Known Member

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    #6 Totalize, Nov 19, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2013
    As I said I use primarily acrylics for my painting such as Tamiya and Vallejo and these paints are much better than acrylics of a few years ago. They go on nicely and I have found are pretty much bullet proof when it comes to using enamel based agents on them. In fact I often do not even prime the model but spray the acrylics directly on the model. Since they dry very fast and within a day I can use enamel/oil based paints and solvents to create filters(using an enamel thinner) over the paint. As a rule I lay down a coat of future for pin washes and general washes. However, I found that if I tried the same enamel based mediums over an enamel paint it took the enamel paint off. Would this not be a problem if used the same mediums but left the enamel paint to dry for 3 days? ( Terry your comments above I believe indicate this is okay to do) In the armour world it is often said you should use a medium opposite to the base coat for weathering. i.e. base coat acyrlics weathering should be enamel based and vice versa.
     
  7. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    The main problem isn't a paint or an enamel but thinners that are used there. Not always these can work properly and react one with the other.
     
  8. Totalize

    Totalize Well-Known Member

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    #8 Totalize, Nov 20, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
    Thanks Wurger,

    I agree with regards to the thinner being the key. Its just that I am mainly a user of acrylics not enamels and so do not have a lot of experience applying filters and washes against a model painted with enamels. I have a lot of Acrylic paints, mainly Vallejo and Tamiya. These I have found to be very flexible when it comes to "the thinner" used with them. For instance you can use Tamiya's acrylic thinner to thin their paints or if you wish you can use a Lacquer thinner either theirs or another such as Mr. Color thinner. Some use Isopropyl alcohol or even water which I don't do for Tamiya paints but it shows the level of thinning options for these paints. Of course Vallejo Model colour paints can be thinned with water for brush painting and I can say for sure that for brush painting they are superior to enamels in terms of coverage and don't have the smell. You can also use the Vallejo thinner and airbrush thinner and spray them like their Model Air paints and they also provide very nice coverage. From what I gather then if I leave the enamel paint on for a number of days, enough to let it cure then I can use an enamel based wash on the paint assuming I do it over coat of future? I don't think a filter would work here as a filter has to be able to change the tonal colour of the base paint and I don't see it being possible to do this through a coat of Future besides, acylic thinned filters would not have the penetrating power In my view to change the tonal colour of a model painted with enamels. Then again I have not seen any threads here about the use of filters on Airplane models so might be a mute point. Must be more of an armour thing.
     
  9. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    For most filters these artistic colours are used. As a thinner it is used the White Spirit or the one for lighters. Of course there are offered filters ( MIG's ones e.g. ) and these can be used as well. Washes aren't filters and applying of them causes a different effect. Filters should be applied on matt surface but washes on or gloss or semi-matt one. Check on the link....

    Missing-lynx.com - Rarities World - The Filter
     
  10. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    Ah, so that's what a filter is! I've been doing it for over 30 years, as a natural extension of art techniques used in painting pictures - didn't know it had a fancy name!
     
  11. Totalize

    Totalize Well-Known Member

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    #11 Totalize, Nov 20, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
    Wurger,

    My comments in the post above are in line with your comments. Filters over a matt surface washes over a future coated service. Two different effects. However, this is not say that this is a golden rule that MUST be followed. I know of one armour modeler that applies his pin washes directly on a matt surface. Just his preference I guess but it still looks good.
     
  12. Totalize

    Totalize Well-Known Member

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    30 Years!!!! Wow. I feel like a babe in the woods with my modeling experience.

    Yep I think some NEO hi-tech modelling guru came up with this filter name.
     
  13. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    Oh sorry I had to get you wrong. But you are right.. filters aren't used on aircraft models often. These are used for vehicles mostly.
     
  14. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    That's just the period applying artistic techniques to models. Actual modelling has been since I was 8 years old - which is approaching 54 years. Heck, I'm getting old!
     
  15. Totalize

    Totalize Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I have noticed this difference as well.
    Dave.
     
  16. Totalize

    Totalize Well-Known Member

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    #16 Totalize, Nov 20, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
    True, I think this applying of artistic techniques by some of the well known modelers in the hobby have degrees in Art. I thought guys like Mig Jimenez had such a degree but I could be wrong.

    As regards to your age, I am sure you are aging gracefully.
     
  17. Crimea_River

    Crimea_River Well-Known Member

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    ROTFLMFAO!!!!!!!! Yeah right!!!
     
  18. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    B*gg*r off! Darned Lumberjacks! I'll have you know I'm still not 16 !!
     
  19. Crimea_River

    Crimea_River Well-Known Member

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    ....mentally.

    Gotta go chop some wood.
     
  20. Totalize

    Totalize Well-Known Member

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    #20 Totalize, Nov 21, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2013
    If ya got your health thats all that matters.
     
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