Were people on the ground ever killed by bullet casings?

FlexiBull · Feb 21, 2009

There was a story of a crew member of a Lancaster, who had responsibility for releasing "window". The foil strips were in bundles and had to be untied before release.

As this jamming device was top secret he was not told what it was for. To him it served no useful purpose.

So at high altitude he would urinate on the bundles which would automatically freeze.

He would then toss out the frozen bundle of aluminium strips in the hope it would hit a German on the head and do some damage.

Urban myth or a WW2 factoid ............... you decide

FlexiBull

Arsenal VG-33 · Feb 21, 2009

I would assume that casing dropped from high altitude could be deadly, if the victim recieved a head impact.

On a related note, if you visit the top of the Empire State building or the Eiffel Tower, you will see warnings posted against dropping small objects, especially coins. They won't kill, but there's enough terminal velocity that they can seriously injure. So I would imagine that recieving a blow from a falling casing, particularly the base of it where it's more solid, it could leave a nasty wound, or perhaps shatter bone.

Marcel · Feb 21, 2009

phas3e said:
I remember seeing photos of a Drop tank that went through some poor Dutch guys roof (I think it was Dutch)

Yep, that one was lost by one of our F16's. Somewhere late '80ies

Marcel · Feb 21, 2009

Amsel said:
I wouldn't think that the velocity of them falling is fast enough. Objects that fall from high up tend to slow down to terminal velocity. The tumbling causes drag lowering the terminal velocity as well.

The velocity would be around 200 km/h IMO enough to smash one's head.

Flyboy2 · Feb 21, 2009

Working on the premise of a low altitude attack, and using the force equation F=maΔy then the pullet falls at 2.538 Nm or 1.873 foot pounds. So I don't think it would kill you, but it would sure hurt a ton.

FlexiBull · Feb 21, 2009

Strange equation FlyBoy2

Flyboy2 · Feb 21, 2009

FlexiBull · Feb 21, 2009

F=ma

Force has the units of Newtons as I guess you know, (sorry I don't work in pounds force) but your equation will produce N.m ( I assume that delta y is a distance)

What are you trying to work out?

Dimensionally your equation doesn't balance

Flyboy2 · Feb 21, 2009

Well its actually the work equation which still produces Nm. The work and force equations both produce equivalent units therefore are sometimes interchangable in some cases including this one. But these are really only theoretical numbers, as I stated earlier it doesn't account for drag, wind resistance, or aerodynamic shaping.

Clay_Allison · Feb 21, 2009

Even a bullet free-dropped from altitude and travelling at terminal velocity is insufficient to kill you (would hurt). The best you are going to get is ~500 fps and that's just not enough to penetrate a skull, much less a helmeted one.

FlexiBull · Feb 21, 2009

Yep that's right so you've calculate the possible energy it theoretically could achieve in Joules

Work done = energy transfered

WD=ma Delta y

Tell me where you found that delta symbol

Flyboy2 · Feb 21, 2009

I found the delta symbol on OpenOffice Writer
Well i guess your right then

FlexiBull · Feb 21, 2009

Yeh but you got the symbols

Sweb · Feb 21, 2009

Amsel said:
I bet that was an interesting trip.

Trebor said:
show som pics?

I have pics of the aircraft taken with a Yashika 35mm camera buried in my archives. I'll see if I can collect them and get them changed to digital. Yes, it was a trip into the past. I also found bits of the planes everywhere - direct hits by B-29s from Saipan that pasted the island every other day at 1100 and 1500 hours - including pitot tubes and such. I got various data plates as well. One was from a Zero tail wheel and another from a Betty engine gearbox cover. The tail wheel plate was brass but the others were aluminum. Most were from various components off the Zero engines. The aircraft data plates were typically painted onto the port aft empennage of the Japanese planes and all of them were weathered off over the 30-odd years when I saw them. All the plexi was gone from every plane as were the tires and other features the islanders found a use for. Just before I arrived a completely intact and undamaged Judy was found hidden amidst a think stand of bamboo with a 1000-lb bomb on a cart beneath it. Japanese officials came out and carefully removed it without disturbing the bomb and took it back to Japan for restoration to flying condition. A US Navy demolition team arrived, packed the bomb with plastique, buried it with dirt and then remotely exploded it. They did this several times during my 4 months there when UXBs were found - mostly American 250 and 500 pounders - and this did a lot of damage. A 20-lb bomb fragment from the Japanese bomb hit the tin roof of the hanger I worked in, burned through and landed on the floor where I had just previously had a Briton-Norman Islander parked. It was still hot when I arrived back at the hanger after the Navy's all clear was radioed to the evacuation town of Colonia. You had to wear some heavy boots when booney-stomping because of all the razor sharp bomb shrapnel littering the airfield surrounds. I counted 20 plus Zeros by doing that as they were mostly hidden in the jungle over-growth over the years. It was almost eery. I was 25 at the time and completely taken with it all. Anyway, I'll see about the pics.

Elvis · Feb 22, 2009

According to Flyboy2's calculations, the falling empty case achieves a velocity of approximately 54 mph.
According to GrauGeist, the casing weighs 3 oz.
There's 7000 grains in a pound, so the casing weghs 1312.5 gr.
54 mph = 79.2 ft./sec.
Using the formula I outlined back on the page one, the casing, moving at that speed, has a force of 18.285356 ft./lbs., or 24.791615 Newton-Metres.

Enough to kill someone?
Maybe, maybe not, but I bet they sure as hell are gonna feel it!

...and I have a feeling Clay Allison likes to watch "Mythbusters".

Elvis

Clay_Allison · Feb 22, 2009

Elvis said:
According to Flyboy2's calculations, the falling empty case achieves a velocity of approximately 54 mph.
According to GrauGeist, the casing weighs 3 oz.
There's 7000 grains in a pound, so the casing weghs 1312.5 gr.
54 mph = 79.2 ft./sec.
Using the formula I outlined back on the page one, the casing, moving at that speed, has a force of 18.285356 ft./lbs., or 24.791615 Newton-Metres.

Enough to kill someone?
Maybe, maybe not, but I bet they sure as hell are gonna feel it!

...and I have a feeling Clay Allison likes to watch "Mythbusters".

Elvis

I do.

Elvis · Feb 22, 2009

FlexiBull · Feb 22, 2009

Good calculations and an interesting value for terminal velocity,

But you can't have a force in anything other than Newtons (or the USA equivalent) it can't be in N.m

The sooner you guys go completely metric the better life is sooo much more easy in SI units

Marcel · Feb 22, 2009

You can calculate the end-speed (fastest obtainable speed) with the next formula:

With:
Vt=end speed
m=mass (Kg)
g=acceleration (9.81 m/s^2)
C(w)= Friction coefficient
p= density of the air kg/m^3
A= area seen from the direction of movement (m^2)

You guys can calculate if you like to

FlexiBull · Feb 22, 2009

I get an answer of about 15ms-1 (33 miles/hour, 49 ft/s) based on a coin falling!!! The BIG variable is the area offered up, since a coin, peanut, cartridge case is going to tumble the area is not constant. I used the mean for a disc rotating. Noway am I going to try to model an empty shell case or even a spent bullet.

I am guessing but TV is probably reached after only several 10's of metres

Were people on the ground ever killed by bullet casings?

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