were the tuskegee airmen the most skilled pilots in the war?

Kryten · Jan 13, 2012

the Tuskagee guys greatest achievement was blowing a battleship sized hole in the notion black men could not operate complicated machinery, an absurd notion based on the fact someones ancestors skin was more suited to sunny climates!
As to whether they were the most skilled, that I doubt, as mentioned above, pilot losses and rotations mean units change continuously, add to that there were many units doing sterling work in appaling circumstances with inferior equipment!
just take a look at the photo recon unit on malta during the siege, Warburton became an ace, flying shot to bits Marylands on recon missions, and his outfit were the real trailblazers in developing photo recon tactics throughout the war, theres more to flying skill than dogfighting after all!

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Jan 13, 2012

freeair10 said:
i don't want to sound like a troll or a ahole, im just trying to find out if they were the best when it came to pure skill

i had a friend, who is black, said the "tuskegee airmen were the best pilots in ww2..." bias, maybe.. but im just trying to find out

How can you say they had the most skill? What criteria are you using?

Seriously...

They were good pilots, just like pilots from every squadron. Every time the discussion of the Tuskegee airmen comes up, it turns into a race issue. If someone does not buy into the Hollywood (yes the myth started long before Hollywood got a hold of it) myth that the Tuskegee airmen never lost a bomber then they are automatically labeled a racist.

Fact of the matter is, there is no way to determine if they were more skilled than any other squadron. They did their job and they did it well. Just like all the other squadrons, they pilots of varying skill.

Edgar Brooks · Jan 13, 2012

As you get older, it's extremely likely that your level of cynicism, with regard to the motives of others, will grow with your wrinkles; the question, around which everyone pussyfoots, is are the Hollywood moguls telling the story because the pilots were out on their own (in which case, why has it taken 65 years to discover this?,) with regard to their skill level, or because they were black, and now is a good time to exploit this fact, and make money out of it?
I feel more than slightly aggrieved at the probability that the story of these men (who, just like hundreds of thousands of like-minded men, volunteered to fight against an evil regime) is being told because of the colour of their skin, not their deeds. If this is so, and I'm just cynical enough to think this, I feel that it actually demeans their achievements.

Rosco P. Coltraine · Jan 13, 2012

freeair10 said:
hollywood is basically saying the tuskegee airmen were the best pilots in the war

And why would you regard Hollywood films as a decent source of information?

buffnut453 · Jan 13, 2012

Rosco P. Coltraine said:
And why would you regard Hollywood films as a decent source of information?

Sadly many people believe Hollywood is correct. Not saying that's the case on this forum but there is a tendency among the uninformed who watch "historical" movies to conflate what they've watched with the truth.

Coors9 · Jan 13, 2012

Didn't Blakeslee have the 336 in their brand new Stangs take off from a short grass field together. That's skill !!! Best .....no .

drgondog · Jan 13, 2012

freeair10 said:
despite not having alot of aces, or top aces (i think they had at least 1 ace)

but anyways, aces don't mean anything, in terms of flight, they were the most skillful pilots in the war

agree or disagree

they were better then there white counterparts

Short answer - no.

Not to denigrate the 332nd FG who certainly had motivation to excel but consider simple facts. Their flight time before arrival in combat was the same as the average USAAF cadet to wings, and subsequent advanced training. Then consider say, JNAF naval pilots and thier training before assignment to a carrier group as well as the combat record. Consider JV44 (squadron of experts) which not only had a high percentage of the LW top ranking aces, including Galland, but also averaged 300+ combat missions for the LOW time aces.

Consider any USAAF squadron of 'pursuit pilots in the 1940 (or USN or USMC) or RAF pilots pre-war with enormous flight time in their logbooks compared to the rookies (including the 332nd FG and 99th Squadron) entering combat in 1943/44.

We can salute their courage and dedication but contrary to Hollywood, the neither 'saved' the 15th AF bombers nor did they 'cahnge the war'.

THE measure of success for USAAF Fighter Groups tasked for escort duties in 1944-1945 was to Destroy the Luftwaffe - which had the beneficial effect of 'protecting the bombers'. On that scale, the 332nd FG was dead last of the 8th and 15th AF escort fighter groups. On a scale of 'Losing the fewest escorted bombers' they were probably at or near the top for the time they were in service. Having said that, they entered combat After the biggest battles for control of the air were fought, and they fought in a theatre which was drawing down LW day fighter resources to send to the defense of the Reich.

drgondog · Jan 13, 2012

freeair10 said:
for the new tuskegeee arimen

the official plot synopsis regarding their mission of escorting the bombers in daylight. Apparently so dangerous the RAF won't do it.

That is simply a stupid and uninformed observation. Just which units did you have in mind that WERE escorting US bombers in Africa and MTO and in ETO when the US Fighter Commands were just beginning to form??? and the 'Tuskeegee Airmen' were a mere figment of organizational imagination? The RAF! (along with all the other Commonwealth AF's). The RAF would have LOVED having the P-51B and responsibility for escort and would have been just as effective (if not moreso in 1943 and early 1944).

As to US units that conceivably 'might have a better record' versus the LW? How about ALL of them.

To name a few, every US Fighter Group in the 8th and 15th AF had a much better record than the 332nd, including those that started on or around the same time as the 332nd - and that is just ETO and MTO. If I had to speculate and examine every squadron in the USAAF, USN, USMC, RAF, VVS, LW, RCAF, etc that flew extended combat in an active air to air theatre (i.e Aleutians would not fit that description), then the squadrons within the 332nd would fit near the bottom.

As an example, each of the SQUADRONS in the top USAAF 10 Fighter Groups in the ETO/MTO shot down more German fighters than ALL FOUR of the 332nd FG squadrons. If you take out the 99th FS which was the first all 'Negro' staffed unit in Combat and began in April, 1943 (it had 31 destroyed, 8 probable and 11 damaged), the other 3 squadrons (100, 301 and 301) combined had 82-7-13.

Out of 90 '0ther' 8th and 15th AF Fighter Squadrons (i.e 1/4 strength of 332nd FG), only 23 had a lower score than the combined four squadrons of the Entire 332nd FG

None of the other 8th and 15th AF USAAF Fighter Groups fighting the Germans had four squadrons - all had three. But- ALL had better records. Some fighter groups, like the 357th that you questioned as having a better record (but also 56th, 354th) , had more air to air victories in ONE fight than any single 332nd FG Squadron had during their entire wartime combat record..

If you want to engage in the debate, set your criteria and do some research.

Messy1 · Jan 13, 2012

I am hoping because George Lucas is at the helm of this movie, or involved in it, that there will be a strong dependance on historical fact to tell this story. So far it is looking like a typical Hollywood aviation movie. I am hoping the pilots are portrayed as the true professionals most WW2 pilots were, no matter the side. Driven by a sense of duty to their country, and loyalty to their fellow soldiers. Would love to see some examples of the chivalry many pilots experienced, and hope the movie puts a human touch to each side and does not make the Germans out to be cold-hearted, in-human minions of Hilter.

FLYBOYJ · Jan 13, 2012

Freeair - I suggest that you do some homework (as mentioned before) about ALL the fighter units based in the ETO and make your analysis accordingly. The Tuskegee airmen were unique because they had to rise above the racism of the day to prove that blacks were just as capable to become skilled combat pilots in the USAAF as their white counterparts. They served bravely and that history is written in stone. There are those in Hollywood however who are trying to make more of them than what they really were and those who point this out fall into the gray area of being called racists.

Were some of the Tuskegee Airmen Excellent pilots? Some were.

Did they meet the call and serve bravely? Yes

Did they lose a bomber during their escort missions over Germany. YES This myth has been busted many times and there were even admittance of this by some Tuskegee pilots.

Were they better than their white counterparts? That shouldn't even be a question - in reality as a whole they could be considered "just as good." There might have been some better, there might have been some worse, the race card needs to be discarded!

Thorlifter · Jan 13, 2012

Well said, everyone. I really don't think Freeair meant anything bad by his question, but it wasn't phrased very well.

Freeair. We are all here to learn and share stories and experiences. I am, by far, not the most experienced or learned person on this site. Stick around and keep asking questions if you don't know, but try looking a few things up first and have a general understanding. And please, please....don't go by anything Hollywood. Since George Lucas is doing the Red Tail movie, I'm sure an X-wing will be escorting the B-17's, but that doesn't make it real.

Perhaps a better way to ask your initial question would have been, "I have a friend who told me the Red Tails were the best squadron in the ETO. Can anyone tell me or give me a site where I can look up to see how statistically they ranked against other fighter groups?"

Just trying to help.

michaelmaltby · Jan 13, 2012

... and, Freeair, you might try also being a wee bit more critical (analytical) of what your "friend" says .... like, you know, if he said you could jump off the roof .... safely, would you?

MM

freeair10 · Jan 13, 2012

drgondog said:
Short answer - no.

Not to denigrate the 332nd FG who certainly had motivation to excel but consider simple facts. Their flight time before arrival in combat was the same as the average USAAF cadet to wings, and subsequent advanced training. Then consider say, JNAF naval pilots and thier training before assignment to a carrier group as well as the combat record. Consider JV44 (squadron of experts) which not only had a high percentage of the LW top ranking aces, including Galland, but also averaged 300+ combat missions for the LOW time aces.

Consider any USAAF squadron of 'pursuit pilots in the 1940 (or USN or USMC) or RAF pilots pre-war with enormous flight time in their logbooks compared to the rookies (including the 332nd FG and 99th Squadron) entering combat in 1943/44.

We can salute their courage and dedication but contrary to Hollywood, the neither 'saved' the 15th AF bombers nor did they 'cahnge the war'.

THE measure of success for USAAF Fighter Groups tasked for escort duties in 1944-1945 was to Destroy the Luftwaffe - which had the beneficial effect of 'protecting the bombers'. On that scale, the 332nd FG was dead last of the 8th and 15th AF escort fighter groups. On a scale of 'Losing the fewest escorted bombers' they were probably at or near the top for the time they were in service. Having said that, they entered combat After the biggest battles for control of the air were fought, and they fought in a theatre which was drawing down LW day fighter resources to send to the defense of the Reich.

i usually here the argument, that the 332nd was fighting against a inexperienced luffwaffle at the time, since they were mostly destroyed (the best pilots) before the 332nd took combat flight... if this is true, then it sheds some new light on the 332nd

freeair10 · Jan 13, 2012

plus if i remember the 332nd were told not to engage in luffwaffle or chase them down, and stick to the escort

thats why they didn't get alot of kills

Crimea_River · Jan 13, 2012

That was true of all units as of the mid 1944.

Erich · Jan 13, 2012

as I said on page # 1 do some research on the 332nd fg and find out the dates of their victories/claims. the 15th AF never did have the experienced LW to contend with like the 8th AF did. the most experienced LW units in the south were Bf 109G equipped JG 27 and Bf 110G-2 II./ZG 1 and several LW ground attack units this also includes Romanian and Hungarian 109G units to the listing.

freeair10 · Jan 13, 2012

Erich said:
as I said on page # 1 do some research on the 332nd fg and find out the dates of their victories/claims. the 15th AF never did have the experienced LW to contend with like the 8th AF did. the most experienced LW units in the south were Bf 109G equipped JG 27 and Bf 110G-2 II./ZG 1 and several LW ground attack units this also includes Romanian and Hungarian 109G units to the listing.

so all in all... the 332nd was NOT the best?

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Jan 13, 2012

FLYBOYJ said:
Were they better than their white counterparts? That shouldn't even be a question - in reality as a whole they could be considered "just as good." There might have been some better, there might have been some worse, the race card needs to be discarded!

I don't know how many times I have been called a racist, because I did not believe in the "myth".

Messy1 · Jan 13, 2012

freeair10 said:
so all in all... the 332nd was NOT the best?

You are looking for a definite 100% yes or no answer. Forget about receiving a positive yes or no answer! This cannot be done with a topic with as much details and evidence to consider. I would say the 332nd was just as good as any other air unit. Each air unit was made of pilots of varying skill in most cases. The more gifted pilots would generally train or teach the less gifted or experienced. This is far too technical and complex of a question to be answered with a definitive yes or now answer.

What is fruit is red, a apple or a orange? Simple question, the Apple!

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Jan 13, 2012

Messy1 said:
You are looking for a definite 100% yes or no answer. Forget about receiving a positive yes or no answer! This cannot be done with a topic with as much details and evidence to consider. I would say the 332nd was just as good as any other air unit. Each air unit was made of pilots of varying skill in most cases. The more gifted pilots would generally train or teach the less gifted or experienced. This is far too technical and complex of a question to be answered with a definitive yes or now answer.

What is fruit is red, a apple or a orange? Simple question, the Apple!

Well said, 100% correct and case closed...

were the tuskegee airmen the most skilled pilots in the war?

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