What if the P-38 was made of plywood a la Mosquito?

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Excerpt from J.E. Gordon (The New Science of Strong Materials):

Problems of rot were always with us but there were other problems as well which were just as serious. The general structure of those aeroplanes was quite different from the old fabric biplanes. The main spar booms and other main structural members were sizable pieces of laminate wood, several inches square, and were generally boxed in on three sides by the plywood skin and shear webs. Now the spruce bar boom wanted to shrink and swell about twice as far as the plywood which was glued to it and this naturally gave rise to serious stresses near to where the two met along the glued joints.

Large pieces of timber take some considerable time to come to equilibrium with the surrounding humidity and, because the English weather changes so often, there was generally no time to build up dangerous differences in swelling strains so that we had comparatively little trouble from this cause, so long as the aircraft were in this country. When they were sent overseas the situation was different. In many climates there are long dry seasons followed by long wet seasons, each season giving ample chance for the wood to dry thoroughly and then, in due time to soak up a great deal of water and swell. In such places there was serious trouble. Big stresses were built up near the glue lines; if the glue was in bad condition it broke; if not, the wood failed near the glue. There was really no cure for this except to bring the aircraft home.

Proposed Mossie rebuild in uk - discussion - Page 9

de Havilland Mosquito

It was eventually determined that the problems were initially the result of a combination of poor gluing practices and poor mate-up of structural members. Worse, in the tropical conditions of the Far East, water soakage led to swelling and shrinkage that gave rise to wing skin delamination and spar failure.

The Mosquito difficulties caused the Squadron several stand-downs from December 1945 and ultimately
apparently contributed to its disbanding in March 1946.


I'll end my part in this with some more of Jeff Jefford, from his Flying Camels Annex K account of the problem:

The second problem concerned the adhesion between the spruce spar booms and various plywood components. Although there was some evidence of inadequate gluing in these cases, which were far less prevalent, it was concluded that the cause was "probably due to swelling of the top skin" causing the securing screws to pull through.

On balance it now appeared, in the case of the Mosquito, that both the manufacturer and the weather had contributed to the failures but it was now beginning to be appreciated that, in the latter case, the shrinkage which had led to separation of components was not so much a cause as an effect; the real damage mechanism was swelling.

These emergent conclusions were confirmed at an MAP meeting on 1st January 1945 which heard an explanation of the Mosquito's defects from Maj DeHavilland who had now returned from India. He was able to report that the manufacturer had conducted strength tests on the suspect scarf joint using partially glued specimens and these had shown that the strength factor in that region of the wing was adequate; surprisingly this was even the case when unglued samples were tested. The more critical failures were those concerning the mutual adhesion of spar booms (particularly the front ones), spar webs and wing skins. The trouble was "attributed to water soakage in conjunction with differential shrinkage and some unsatisfactory initial gluing."

The company undertook to improve manufacturing techniques among the contractors building Mosquito components which would take care of the inadequate "initial gluing" problem entirely. The "differential shrinkage" aspect was less easily resolved. The root cause of this was considered to be the ingress of water and it had become apparent that a major factor here was the deterioration of dope and sealant on the upper surfaces of the aircraft; a factor which had not been widely reported at first.

Repair of defective aircraft, of which there were about fifty in India, would involve replacement of the entire front spar and leading edge assemblies. Prevention of future occurrences was to be achieved by applying a plywood strip spanwise along the entire wing to seal the whole of the upper skin joint which ran the length of the front spar. This was subsequently introduced as Modification (Mod) 638. Surprisingly, since it altered the aerofoil section, Mod 638 appears to have had no adverse effect on either performance or handling. Finally, to improve the protective finish further, Major DeHavilland reactivated an earlier proposal that reflective silver paint be introduced. Although this had previously been ruled out on tactical grounds it was agreed that the suggestion would be re-examined and on 14th February 1945 a silver finish was authorised for all Mosquitos based in India.

DeHavillands had, at first, been understandably reluctant to acknowledge that their construction techniques were lacking but there seems little doubt that this had been the case in 1944, although this was a problem of quality control rather than a fundamental fault in the Mosquito's design and seems in any case not to have been critical. There is little reason to doubt, however, that the aircraft's greatest deficiency was the inherent inability of its wooden structure to stand up to the demands of the tropical climate and it appears to have been impossible to make the aeroplane waterproof. While Mod 638 may have been sufficient to keep the rain out in Europe, continuing post-war problems with late-build Mosquitos would indicate that it evidently failed to do the job in southern Asia.

With the advantage of hindsight an additional contributory factor suggests itself. It seems likely that the inherent tendency for the integrity of the Mosquito's wing to become degraded under tropical conditions was exacerbated by the stresses imposed by low-level attack operations.
 
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On a vaguely similar line, there are apparently serious proposals for wooden skyscrapers (Vienna plans world's tallest wooden skyscraper, http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/09/would-you-live-wooden-skyscraper).

There are trade-offs for wooden vs aluminum construction. One is that wooden construction is bulkier, so that there is more volume required for structure. Another is that process and adhesive selection are critical. Obviously, (Mosquito) high performance aircraft can be built of wood, but DeHaviland had considerable experience in wooden aircraft e.g., DH.91 Albatross, and few US manufacturers had that kind of experience. Even so, the DH.91 had to be grounded because of a crash suspected to be due to structural failure.
 
Thanks to shortround6 for inspiring this mess:

Mosquito Right.jpg

I shortened the journey of air out to contain the illustration a bit (so not to scale). The box spar at 21% of chord has the annular radiator cut into it and braced by steel sheet around it. This is glue and screwed to the wood of the box spar. Fingers crossed eh? Centreline circular cuts through the box spar at 40% allow the narrowed warm fast air to be jetted over the rear surface of the wing at about 55-60% of chord.

I used the same narrowed RAF34 foil to guide the air out, hoping to get good flow and a bit of lift. The little flap on the base of the air inlet area is to speed up the air to encourage drag as a speed break. Only for use when throttled back as it covers some of the radiator. You could control it as a continuation from zero throttle. I would not like to be the one to clean the literal bugs out of this one.

Since oil heat will be needed here too, guns, cameras and pilots will need their own heat source. Electronic valves?

PG is a computer wargame from the 1980s perfect is ironic (Platonic is an unreachable ideal) and small g general is jack of all trades.
 
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the other question, why wasnt the Mosquito license built in the USA and used instead of the P-61
 
because both the P-38 and the P-61 were both much better at everything than the Mosquito was apparently, bit of a dog from de havilland, what were they thinking ?

Seems that bitter pill is still stuck in your throat Karl......:lol:
 
One problem is that the US aero industry had less experience in wood aircraft and almost none in high performance wood aircraft
Well it was produced in Australia and Canada I think the skills required are common in quality furniture production. The main issue I think was it was not one of their own. from wiki The trials set up future production plans between Britain, Australia and Canada. Six days later Arnold returned to America with a full set of manufacturer's drawings. As a result of his report five companies (Beech; Curtiss-Wright; Fairchild; Fleetwings; and Hughes) were asked to evaluate the de Havilland data. The report by Beech Aircraft summed up the general view: "It appears as though this airplane has sacrificed serviceability, structural strength, ease of construction and flying characteristics in an attempt to use construction material which is not suitable for the manufacture of efficient airplanes."[62] The Americans did not pursue the proposal for licensed production, the consensus arguing that the Lockheed P-38 Lightning could fulfill the same duties. However, Arnold urged the United States Army Air Forces to evaluate the design even if they would not adopt it. On 12 December 1941, after the attack on Pearl Harbor, the USAAF requested one airframe for this purpose.[59]
 
Yet the US did use the Mosquito.
What it was good at was not immediately obvious as a need to the USA. Phot and Met Recon was not given much thought and as a night fighter any US manufacturer could argue that they could or would produce better. Was there such a task as "met recon" in military terms in 1941?
 
What it was good at was not immediately obvious as a need to the USA. Phot and Met Recon was not given much thought and as a night fighter any US manufacturer could argue that they could or would produce better. Was there such a task as "met recon" in military terms in 1941?

They could certainly argue they could produce better; arguably, they did not do so.
 
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They could certainly argue they could produce better; arguably, they did not do.
I would say the area of night fighter performance the US needed a Mosquito for was a short lived niche. The Mosquito was designed as a light bomber but first went into service doing recon, I think the need for recon just became after the war started. It isn't glamourous it just needs very high performance to do it in speed and range.
 
You have conflicting timelines and conflicting requirements.

Good as the Mosquito was it was unproven in late 1940 and early 1941 when the P-61 project started. Arnold saw the unarmed light bomber prototype demonstrated in April of 1941, about 5 weeks after the contract for 13 YP-61s was placed and about 80 days after the contract was placed for two prototypes and two wind tunnel models. In fact the P-61 mock up was ready for inspection within days of Arnold seeing the Mosquito.
The first Mosquito night fighter doesn't enter service until Jan 1942

From Joe Baugher's web site" A letter of intent was initiated on December 24, 1941, which called for 100 P-61 production aircraft and spares. Fifty more were ordered on January 17, 1942. The order was increased to 410 aircraft on February 12, 1942, fifty of which were to be diverted to the RAF under Lend-Lease. "

Which is obviously well before the Mosquito night fighter had established any sort of reputation. And let's not forget the British themselves spent of the summer of 1941 trying to figure out how to put a turret on the Night fighter Mosquito and Beaufighter. Had the joint British/American requirement for the P-61 dropped the turret requirement in the spring of 1941 (in the pre mockup or mockup stage) the Actual P-61 may have been somewhat different?

It does seem the development of the P-61 dragged out and it only went into service over two years after the Mosquito night fighter went into service.

at one point as many as 1600 P-61s may have been on order (or letters of intent issued?) but fewer than 700 were built during the war. Planes for 1200 of that number from a 2nd source were canceled in the summer of 1942.
 
You have conflicting timelines and conflicting requirements.

Good as the Mosquito was it was unproven in late 1940 and early 1941 when the P-61 project started. .
Pretty much how I saw it, it was a light bomber until it was something else. When did the USA start looking for recon planes? Was there ever a design brief for one?
 
Dec '41 I'm sure the USAAC thought it needed a night fighter as soon as possible to protect cities from a potential Blitz, in hind sight there wasn't a threat. All of the other primes had major design efforts. Northrup may have gotten the P-61 as much as by default that all the other primes had major design and fab contracts in the works.
 

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