What if the U.S. and the USAAF had paid attention?

[Tanker Tom]

If you've seen a wartime era cartoon, you'll see that they made Germans, Italians and Japanese out to be idiots.

While I can understand the motive behind it, it was woefully misleading.
Downplaying (or avoiding to acknowledge the enemy's strength) may lend to an idea of superiority, it undermined the soldier's (or aviator's) ability to be cautious and deal with the enemy as a dangerous adversary (which they certainly were).
That, at least in my mind, was a contributing factor in many casualties early on.

They were doing the same.

 

[Tanker Tom]

You're right about the undermining of caution and prudence. I'd like to know why people apparently believed that nonsense.

They did the same.

 

[Tanker Tom]

Dream on, friend! Given the political climate in Japan at the time that would have been a non-starter. Any person or group making such a suggestion would have collected assassins like a fresh cowflap collects flies, despite its obvious (to us today) advantages.

There was no way of this happening. The US had cut off sales of scrape steel and oil, this was a big point for them. Then there is the "Greater Asian Co-Prosperity sphere", they came up with. An excuse for trading Europeans with Japanese as masters of Asia and the Pacific. Though the Japanese tended to be brutal to everyone.

 

[Tanker Tom]

Sad to say, but therenwas always a predujice against the "yellow devils".
California's history is full of cases where Chinese miners were persecuted.
The Japanese (who were mostly farmers) came under the same scrutiny and bias prior to the war.

What did NOT help the Japanese-Americans, was the Naiihau Incident immediately following the attack on Pearl Harbor.

They had their prejudices also. What the Japanese did to the civilian populations in the territories they over ran, was many times worse than anything the USA did,

Human nature.

Dehumanizing a class, race or nation gives a sense of superiority.

That tactic is about as old as the Human race itself.

Has anyone learned from the countless lessons over the eons?

No. No, they have not...

The axis had their propaganda also, as you said it has gone on for millennia, and still happens today. The only lesson here is that propaganda works, and yes, we have learned it very well.

 

[manta22]

They were doing the same.

Demonizing the enemy is a principle as old as war itself. The British referred to Gonorrhea as the "French Pox" in the Middle Ages and the French were equally disrespectful in return. We are the Good Guys and the Enemy is always Evil... no matter who the "We" is. It has always been that way and will so remain.

 

[SaparotRob]

Except WE really are the good guys.

 

[Shortround6]

 

[manta22]

View attachment 700925

I fart in your general direction!

 

[Tanker Tom]

Demonizing the enemy is a principle as old as war itself. The British referred to Gonorrhea as the "French Pox" in the Middle Ages and the French were equally disrespectful in return. We are the Good Guys and the Enemy is always Evil... no matter who the "We" is. It has always been that way and will so remain.

Well said!

 

[yulzari]

Demonizing the enemy is a principle as old as war itself. The British referred to Gonorrhea as the "French Pox" in the Middle Ages and the French were equally disrespectful in return. We are the Good Guys and the Enemy is always Evil... no matter who the "We" is. It has always been that way and will so remain.

At least an English overcoat will prevent the problem occurring…….

 

[manta22]

At least an English overcoat will prevent the problem occurring…….

...or a French capote.

 

[yulzari]

...or a French capote.

Capote anglaise.

 

[Macandy]

Yes, there was a huge degree of racism at play.
On the British side, while there might be some 'justification' sending out briefing notes to Singapore that the Japanese couldn't fight at night because of poor eyesight - it should have been rather obvious after both the Japanese Army, Navy and Air Force demonstrated a rather impressive ability to operate at night and defeated the British, a bit of a reappraisal was in order.
But no, in April 1942, while Nagumos Fleet was tearing up the Indian Ocean, Admiral Sommervile was being sagely advised by London his best tactic was to attack the Japanese fleet at night because, the Japanese had poor eyesight and couldn't fight at night!

This was all rather odd advise, as the Royal Navy had been very close bystanders to the Japanese Air, Land and Sea operations in China in the 30's and should have been acutely aware they could indeed operate effectively after sunset.

 

[syscom3]

Chennault arrived in China in 1937. I believe the Zero's first operations were in July 1940. We started sending aircraft to China in late 1940/ 41. Flying Tigers recruited in April 1941, started training in August, went operational in December, AFTER Pearl Harbor.

Aside from getting individual units to adopt "boom and zoom" tactics earlier, in hindsight, would it had really made a difference? The only thing I see that "should have" been done was building up forces in the Philippines but I think everyone knew, from Roosevelt down, that war with Japan would eventually come.

Some of the AAF units who had to fight the Zero with P-39s and P-40s actually held the line until the P-38 arrived in the SWP in numbers. After that the tide turned quickly.

So in the bigger picture, even if "people listened," given the time span of events, what really "could have" been done???

Yes. And many times, you just have to let technology develop and mature on its own natural pace.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

This was all rather odd advise, as the Royal Navy had been very close bystanders to the Japanese Air, Land and Sea operations in China in the 30's and should have been acutely aware they could indeed operate effectively after sunset.

Did Admiralty specifically mention this as the reason to conduct his attack at night? Or was it because Albacore had ASV radar and Japanese ships lacked aerial warning radars?

I'll see if I can find the instructions to Somerville.

Note that I'm not arguing that racism wasn't a profound influence in the war, just wondering if this specific operation was influenced by it.

 

[MikeMeech]

Did Admiralty specifically mention this as the reason to conduct his attack at night? Or was it because Albacore had ASV radar and Japanese ships didn't?

I'll see if I can find the instryctions to Somerville.

Note that I'm not arguing that racism wasn't a profound influence in the war, just wondering if this specific operation was influenced by it.

Hi

I think the night attack decision was based on the 'success' of the Battle of Matapan against the Italians in 1941, despite 'confusion' apparent during any night action.

Mike

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Hi

I think the night attack decision was based on the 'success' of the Battle of Matapan against the Italians in 1941, despite 'confusion' apparent during any night action.

Mike

My understanding is that the Brits were comfortable with night-fighting, more so than America; and in part this was because they had what (for the time) was pretty advanced radar.

Starting to dig for Somerville's orders, will report back if I find the pertinent info.

ETA: The only reference I can find to Admiralty orders, from Wiki (with all due caveats) indicate that the orders were to guard shipping lanes and preserve his force as a fleet-in-being, but nothing so specific as how to conduct the battle itself. I have a question out to Rob at Tully's Port, who has much expertise on the matter, requesting a link to the orders given Somerville, and again, will show my work. If anyone I know has a copy of those orders, he will.

 

[Barrett]

My parents grew up in the 20s and 30s, (my mother was born in Japan and left at age 9 in 1933, and my paternal grandfather was born in Tokyo and left in 1908 at age 14.) They were both well aware of "Japan bashing" in the US in the interwar period. If you're not aware of this, maybe you need to do a little more research. It's history and it's not hidden. My mom, despite her caucasian status was teased unmercifully, shunned and called "Jap Squaw", "Geisha Girl" and "Mama San" by her classmates in a small town in Maine, and later in Vermont.
The very senior Navy dental surgeon who extracted my impacted molars was, in his first career, a Wildcat pilot in VF10, "the Grim Reapers", and he said that the scuttlebutt in flight training (pre Pearl Harbor) was "The Japs are lousy pilots and their planes are junk!" When PH happened, the reports back of Japanese aircraft performance were dismissed as delusional, and they were still being trained to do "round 'n round" dogfighting. First contact was a rude shock, but they'd been given an introduction to the Thach weave at Pearl before embarking for the Solomons, so their losses weren't too bad.
He had a huge scar on his left forearm where he'd lost his grip on the landing gear crank while taking off from Cactus in the midst of a strafing attack, and it gave him a dual compound fracture as it unwound. He managed to evade the Zeros, "single-handing" the plane with gear and flaps down, but absorbing a lot of lead. When the raid was over, he managed to get the plane safely on the ground, but it was a write-off. The ship sent an SBD to collect him after the medics patched his arm up. He kept a plaque on his wall paying homage to " The Grumman Iron Works" with a picture of his shot up Wildcat.

To quote Spock: "Fascinating." Who was the dentist? Maybe I had contact w/him over the years-decades.

 

[Barrett]

There are actually two questions here. The discussion of this topic by it's nature must be highly speculative but firstly, I would like to know what happened to the reports coming out of China after the middle of July 1940 about the new fighter that the Japanese were fielding. We know that Chennault was sending in all the information he could gather on Japanese bombers, on the Ki-27, the A5M and the little he could scrounge on the A6M. It is a matter of record that General George Marshall listened and took what Chennault was saying seriously. There are reports of other U.S. people in China doing the same and of other highly placed peoplein the U.S. getting that information. But ultimately no one did anything. Why?
Secondly, if the reports on the A6M had been taken seriously what could have been done?

A couple of perspectives:

I knew a VMF-211 pilot, BGEN John Kinney, who kept the F4Fs going on Wake. He said on the outbound trip the intel officer provided a briefing on Japanese aircraft. "One of them looked like a Curtiss Pusher."

Long ago I looked up the 1940 issue of Jane's All the World's Aircraft. It contained brief mention of a Mitsubishi retractible-gear monoplane fighter but I don't recall any specs.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

To quote Spock: "Fascinating." Who was the dentist? Maybe I had contact w/him over the years-decades

Capt Lew Slagle. Check post #288 in this thread. We've plowed this field before.