What if the U.S. and the USAAF had paid attention?

[buffnut453]

Gato is a catshark?

What in all of hells bells is a catshark?

Some Frankenstein freak of hellishness.

Such a creature would be the worst monster that ever lived.

Only if they were equipped with lasers. Sharks with lasers? Bad. Catsharks with lasers? Very bad. Alas, all we get are disgruntled haddock...and no lasers!

 

[SaparotRob]

(Like I would have)

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

In angling mythology the catshark was the sworn enemy of the dogfish.

Both were scared witless of the lionfish.

 

[The Basket]

Japan should have done a switcheroo and joined the allies in 1940.

They then would have been able to keep Korea and Manchukuo until the end of time. The British and Dutch would have happily supplied all thier petroleum needs. Maybe even radar or raw materials.

You don't win any prizes backing the wrong horse.

 

[ThomasP]

 

[Shortround6]

Cats with thumbs !!!!
The Human species is in extreme peril !!!!

 

[ThomasP]

Just wait until they learn to fly!

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Japan should have done a switcheroo and joined the allies in 1940.

They then would have been able to keep Korea and Manchukuo until the end of time. The British and Dutch would have happily supplied all thier petroleum needs. Maybe even radar or raw materials.

You don't win any prizes backing the wrong horse.

Dream on, friend! Given the political climate in Japan at the time that would have been a non-starter. Any person or group making such a suggestion would have collected assassins like a fresh cowflap collects flies, despite its obvious (to us today) advantages.

 

[Shortround6]

To make such a thing possible would have required the Japanese to retreat from large areas of China.
They could not stay in China and join the western powers at the same time. They had generated too much bad press during the 1930s.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Japan should have done a switcheroo and joined the allies in 1940.

They then would have been able to keep Korea and Manchukuo until the end of time. The British and Dutch would have happily supplied all thier petroleum needs. Maybe even radar or raw materials.

You don't win any prizes backing the wrong horse.

They sure chose the wrong horses, read the tea-leaves the wrong way, however you might wish to put it; but disregarding the industrial strength of the US and UK combined was unwise, especially after dishing out the humiliations of Pearl Harbor and Singapore.

You know the bastards'll be hunting for revenge at that point, and they've got the majority of the world's steel production and 200 millions population to back it up.

Dumb, dumb move. You're right, they should've Allied up, again, and gotten some more islands or concessions. They played WWI very well ... WWII, not so much.

 

[The Basket]

Churchill allied to Stalin. He once said he would have put a good word in for Satan if he supported the British.

Had Japan suddenly allied to UK in 1940 then UK would have taken it with open arms. Regardless.

Of course it didn't play out that way. But had Japan done so then it's prospects in this time line would have been better than reality.

 

[P-39 Expert]

Nice and interesting thread. I had a couple of points to add.

Regarding American racist attitudes
These were very real of course but it's a bit more complex than the modern narrative tends to have us believe. A lot of it, as has been touched upon in the thread, overlaps with basic nationalist propaganda. All nations in WW2 did this - belittled and assigned negative racial stereotypes to their enemies. The British (and the Americans) called the Germans 'Huns', and depicted them like this:

View attachment 633677 View attachment 633678

Both in WWI and WW2. This was part of the nature of 'total war' thinking in those days, by pretty much everyone. And while the Americans treated Japanese immigrants especially badly, they did also intern some Germans and even some Italians.

Regarding the US and Asia specifically, I once read an article about how the US shifted between periods of being hostile toward China and friendly toward Japan, and the reverse. When they were hostile toward one country we tended to treat immigrants extremely badly, passing draconian laws against them, banning immigration and so on. When they were on friendlier terms, they began to import more and adapt aspects of each culture in turn. I actually think this still goes on, having lived through these kinds of phases in my own lifetime.

Regarding Japans technology
Hindsight is always 20-20. We have to keep in mind how far and how fast Japan had come. It's really staggering. Prior to the Boshin war, and the end of the Tokugawa Shogunate circa 1870, Japan was like one of those Kurosawa movies - people were settling scores with samurai swords. As far as Americans and most Europeans were concerned, they were these exotic people who were still living in the middle ages. Then all the sudden they had a modern (albeit, partly borrowed from the British) fleet and were beating the crap out of the Russians circa 1905. By the 1930s they were alarming everyone by their military successes in Manchuria etc., and it was dawning on the world that Japan wasn't just another remote backwater, but for them to come up to parity with the most advanced military's in the world, and beyond, by 1941 - was difficult to comprehend. Dan Carrlin's Supernova in the East helps put it in perspective pretty well I think.

To me, it's a bit like the rise of China today.

Regarding the NA-73
I don't think building more NA-73 / P-51A / A-36s would have improved the fighter situation in the Far East. It was faster than all our other pursuit planes but it did quite poorly as a fighter. There was only ever 1 Allison P-51 Ace. The problem was apparently due to ailerons, and was fixed with the P-51B as part of the general upgrade to the new engine. This, in my opinion, would have prevented the early Mustangs from making a Strategic difference in the Pacific.

One P-51 ace. Hmmm.

However, I do think the NA 73 could have been helpful if they had some at say, Midway or the Philippines, as a recon plane and as a dive bomber. I don't think it is so unlikely they could have gotten some there as they had B-17s.. In the recon role, it had good range, I think better than all other US single engined aircraft, and a much faster cruise speed, and was quite hard to shoot down due to that speed. Fast recon might mean earlier detection of enemy ships. As a dive bomber, I think again it had better range than an SBD, and would probably be harder to shoot down. Whether or not they could hit ships with them I don't know, that would have a lot to do with training that wasn't as advanced in the USAAF as it was in the Navy, but I think it would have still been handier to have at Midway than those Vought Vindicators etc. An A-36 could run away from a Zero.

The Philippines
The big thing there was early warning and preparation. Most of the US planes, especially the fighters, were destroyed on the ground. It was bad luck for the Americans that they had just got some (painfully) brand new P-40E's the same week as the attack. We know from other battles, if they had an early warning in place (something they could have picked up from Chennault) and managed to have these fighters in the air, it could have helped enormously. Slowed the battle down, slowed Japan's momentum down. We know from places like Milne Bay etc. they could make a difference.

A better engine
I'm not even sure Japan was the biggest thing to worry about, as US fighters were particularly vulnerable to the German aircraft too. American war-planners and ranking officers knew about the Battle of France and the Battle of Britain and the lessons had been learned there - such as the need to fight at the highest altitude bombers could fly. As was pointed out a few times upthread, the Jimmy Thach thing was good preparation, probably just enough. The one other thing they might have done differently in my opinion, is to have developed a high altitude engine they could use effectively on a land based fighter in 1942. Two speed or two stage in-line engine, either an Allison or US made Merlin, would probably be the way to go. Not that they didn't make Packard Merlins obviously but maybe if they had been more cogniscent of the dangers they might have done more faster. Either that or fit one of those two-stage R-1830s on a P-36 or just rushed the P-47 or P-38 into development a bit faster.

 

[Schweik]

One Allison-engined P-51 Ace.

 

[P-39 Expert]

One Allison-engined P-51 Ace.

I got it.

 

[GrauGeist]

One P-51 ace. Hmmm

Yes, one.
Considering it was an A-36 (Lt. Russo), that's quite a feat.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

One P-51 ace. Hmmm.

Fortunately, the P-51 was fairly easy to upgrade into a plane that was the mount of several hundred aces.

 

[Schweik]

One thing I never have been able to determine, is whether they updated the ailerons on the Allison Engined mustangs, which they built for the British. Did the NA -97 / Mustang II have the aileron fix?

According to this, the P-51A that they used in Burma didn't do so well against the Ki-43

"They were at a disadvantage against their primary adversary, the agile Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa, known to the Allies as the "Oscar". Although the Oscar had significant weaknesses, being under-armed and lacking in armor protection, the Mustangs got the worst of it in their clashes with the Japanese fighter over Burma. These missions were, however, the first use of the Mustang as a long-range escort fighter, with P-51As carrying two 284-liter (75 US gallon) drop tanks and flying round trips from Kurmitola in Bengal to Rangoon in Burma, 725 kilometers (450 miles) away. It was a hint of things to come. "

But then they switched to P-51B's which had outstanding records.

 

[Schweik]

Speaking of A-36 Apaches, I posted a transcription of an interview with a local A-36 pilot here

Brother Blackwell - A-36 Apache pilot

I have an eccentric and very intelligent buddy who is something of a mad scientist who lives out in a very rough part of town, where he makes (to me) uncanny devices such as Tesla coils, hovercrafts, flame organs and other odd but impressive machines. My mad scientist friend knows I am a history...

ww2aircraft.net

 

[manta22]

An excellent read on the issues under discussion here:

The Fate of Emperor Hirohito | The National WWII Museum | New Orleans

Would Japanese Emperor Hirohito remain in power after his nation’s surrender? His fate rested in part on the attitude of General Douglas MacArthur.

www.nationalww2museum.org

This is a good detailed history of a Japanese coup that did not take place. History would have been far different if it had.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k74y7B0sEFo

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

This is a good detailed history of a Japanese coup that did not take place. History would have been far different if it had.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k74y7B0sEFo

Indeed, that was a close-run thing. IIRC, ministers were hiding in closets and being smuggled out of buildings to avoid being murdered by Army fanatics. Had they succeeded, millions of Japanese would have died of famine or invasion.

I'll watch the vid itself in a little bit, but thanks for offering more detailed info.