What If...?

KraziKanuK · Apr 18, 2006

syscom3 said:
The German army was stopped in Russia at Moscow, and by winter conditions.

The Allies always intended to invade Normandy, the quesiton was when. Stalin wanted it sooner than later. Eisenhower wisely planned the invasion for when he had the men, material and air supremecy to sucede.

That is a bit of a myth. The Russians were just as much effected by the winter as the Germans. The only Russian troops 'winter' equiped were those from Siberia.

The Spring and Fall seasons had more effect on the battles on the EF.

Should add, that the wrecking of the Russian rail system and having to be re-built to German rr guage slowed the delivery of much needed supplies.

Normandy was not the prime invasion place. The whole coast was looked at and there was thoughts of going up the under belly of Europe, Italy.

delcyros · Apr 18, 2006

Yes. The only way Hitler succeeding in Russia are:
1.) Replace spy Dr. Richard Sorge in Japan (who supported Stalin with concrete attack plans of Japan and Germany and had some political influence on the japanese prime minister) in time
2.) convince Japan to attack Russia instead of the US (as originally wanted and called for).
ergo:
no sibirian reinforcement in late 1941 for Moscow
military operations in 1941/early 1942 would be more difficult to cunduct for the red army, maybe that Moscow would fall, maybe that Stalin ask for armistice (as he indeed did) or he will be replaced by another one.
It remains still questionable if a joint attack on Russia would be powerful enough to defeat Russia (Japans ground forces are of questionable value and the distances are really beyond good and evil)

KraziKanuK · Apr 18, 2006

Questionable or not delcyros, the Japanese would have pulled men and resources from the EF which might have been the edge the Germans needed.

davparlr · Apr 18, 2006

carpenoctem1689 said:
Japan, already at war with china, mad about the border class in manchuria, and not fearing an american invasion might well defeat china and the move on to russia, because china wouldnt be getting american supplies, and it would most likely fall, opening up resources to the japanese who could pound the soviets. making it unwinnable for them...even if the japanese lost on their front, it would make needed russian forces they couldnt spare on their eastern front

The Japanese were unlikely able to provide support to Germany with Russia under any circumstance. The US had issued an ultimatum to Japan telling them either to get out of China or face an embargo of oil. Without oil, Japan could not defeat China. The Japanese had only a few months of oil available when they attacked Pearl Harbor. To continue the fight with China, the US had to be neutralized. In addition, Japan was hesitant to engage Russia, whch agravated Hitler (he declared war on the US expecting Japan to do the same with Russia). You see, the Japanese had already engaged Russia, along the Manchuran border I believe, and had been spanked. It seems they had met a no-name Marshal called Zhukov!

carpenoctem1689 · Apr 18, 2006

yeah, but were assuming the US would not issue the Ultimatum, not wanting a war, and might not totally embargo oil. with no aid from the US china would likely fall, and her natural resources would become available to the japanese...when the russians moved production facities, the japanese had long range bombers and fighters that could disrupt this.

Bullockracing · Apr 21, 2006

The japanese would not have had the oil and rubber resources without taking over american-controlled ocean territory. If not taking complete control, they would have left themselves vulnerable. Either way, the Greater Asia Co-prosperity Sphere included American territory.

Even if Japan had defeated China, they wouldn't have been able to support a remote air force strong enough to impact Russia's production capability in a strategic sense.

jhor9 · May 18, 2006

the lancaster kicks *** said:
the Graf Spee was completed and she was a pocket battleship i believe, the Graf Zepplin was the uncompleted carrier, but i don't think it'd make much difference, we'd have sent allot of power to meet her in the atlantic if she even made the break out.........

I don't recall the Germans having a GZ battleship, the only GZ that I can remember was the airship, maybe I was too young at the time
I do remember the airship.
The Graf Zeppelin predated the Hindenberg. which was lost due to a fire, I believe in 1936 or 37.they were airships . No airship would have fared well in WW2, they would have been very easy to destroy. They were used by the Germans in WW1, they had very limited success

Nonskimmer · May 18, 2006

jhor9 said:
The Graf Zeppelin predated the Hindenberg.they were airships .

Graf Zeppelin was also the name of an uncompleted German aircraft carrier, built between 1936 and 1938.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · May 19, 2006

As nonskimmer said it was an aircraft carrier that was launched but never completed. It was taken by the Russians and sank later. Here are some pics.

syscom3 · May 19, 2006

jhor9 said:
.......No airship would have fared well in WW2, they would have been very easy to destroy. They were used by the Germans in WW1, they had very limited success

The USN used them for coastal anti sub patrols.

Here's I started a thread of the blimp hangers that still exist at the decommisioned Tustin MCAS.

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/tustin-blimp-base-2599.html?highlight=tustin

DerAdlerIstGelandet · May 19, 2006

They were limited in what they could do but they still had uses as in the case of the US Navy. I really dont think anyone had the idea of using them as bombers in WW2 except for maybe the Japs who did try and bomb the west coast.

Dac · May 26, 2006

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
They were limited in what they could do but they still had uses as in the case of the US Navy. I really dont think anyone had the idea of using them as bombers in WW2 except for maybe the Japs who did try and bomb the west coast.

The Japanese launched thousands of balloon bombs at North American. They thought it would be possible to set the forests of the Pacific Northwest on fire and cause a lot of damage. They did start a few forest fires and a small number of people were killed by fragmentation bombs while examining crashed balloons. There was a plan to include chemical and biological weapons as part of the payload, but as far as I know they never did. The furthest one of the ricepaper balloons got was over the Rockies into Alberta.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · May 27, 2006

I know thats why I said the Japanese were the only ones that thought tried it.

lesofprimus · May 27, 2006

And also why we discussed the topic in 2 different threads already......

Dac · May 28, 2006

didn't mean to duplicate the discussion, which is the other thread?

lesofprimus · May 28, 2006

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/stories/japanese-balloons-bats-3974.html?highlight=balloons

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/ww2-general/bombing-america-3805.html?highlight=balloons

DerAdlerIstGelandet · May 28, 2006

Dac · May 28, 2006

Interesting article, thanks for the link.

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