What of the Me 410?

[Erich]

back to Eduard's claims of 3 P-38's. I am very doubtful but .......... my letter via e-mail went out 5 minutes ago. and I am going to write a former P-38 pilot fo the 20th fg in about the same time frame shortly about this February 44 date op. 14 P-38's were claimed by JG's, II./ZG 26-3 by Tratt and even by Bf 110G-4 night fighter, 1 claim by NJG 102 a training unit. there was a total of 8 P-38's lost...

more to come. 20th fg damaged 2 Me 410's on the mission

let the beatings continue in full earnest

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The 410 was inferior to the P38 in every respect. If the 410 had success's it was due to the P38 being ambushed, or more likely, a rookie or bad pilot making a mistake and paying for it.

No it could have been flown by a good pilot. I will leave it at that...

 

[syscom3]

No it could have been flown by a good pilot. I will leave it at that...

A good pilot making a mistake that gets him shot down is ultimatly, a bad pilot.

 

[Civettone]

That Me 410 pilot was a Major, so that would make him one of the best Me 410 pilots.

I'm drawing this from memory so I could be off, but I seem to remember that the Me 410 units shot down 70 heavies with the loss of just 8 of their own. That was of course before the American fighters started to interfere.

On paper, it's also clear that the Me 410 fighter didn't better the P-38 in any way.
Kris

 

[Erich]

this thread is going in circles guys. II./ZG 26 most likely mixed it up with the P-38's of the 20th fg as the unit was the only one besides the 55th fg that operated the Lightning . The 55th fg was not really in combat with bomber protection on the date. other US fighter groups were operating the P-47 except for the 355th which had the P-51 as well as the Pioneer Mustang group from the 9th AF, the 354th fg which claimed 13 kills this February op.
my email contact from the 20th fg is out till the 28th of the month but I wrote a former P-38 pilot vet from the group and he should respond by this eve if he is at home.

Kris the ZG's and the NJG's this date shot down 0 heavy bombers but claimed 3 P-38s from Tratt and like I said a NJG 102 pilot claimed another P-38. 2 B-17's were claimed downed by Fw 190A's of Sturmstaffel 1, 1 from I./JG 11, 1 from I./JG 26 and 1 from II./JG 26.
This matches exactly with US 8th AF bomber losses. 14 P38's claimed which is incorrect and 4 P-47's and 2 P-51's, the latter P-47/P-51's I would have to check up on ........
Luftw twin engine losses were 6 destroyed and 6 with damge of under 60 %.

now let the jesting continue

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

A good pilot making a mistake that gets him shot down is ultimatly, a bad pilot.

No I am saying that just because they were Luftwaffe does not mean that they did not have good pilots...

And as for good pilots that make mistakes. It happens. I have flown with many good pilots who made mistakes and almost got us killed. Its called being human. You make mistakes too syscom...

 

[Erich]

here we go from Art of the 20th fg

ERIC, WE LOST 8-P-38S ON THIS DATE, INCLUDING A DEPUTY GROUP COMMANDER WHO BROKE A LEG, BUT MANAGED TO EVADE THROUGH SPAIN, WITH FRENCH AND ANOTHER US PILOT. UNDER CONTINIOUS BOUNCE, MOST RAN OUT OF FUEL, MADE IT BACK OVER FRANCE AND BAILED OUT.

THIS DAY, MYSELF AND A LARGE GROUP OF REPLACEMENT PILOTS ALSO ARRIVED.

ART

I asked him whom bounced the 38's in my second note a moment ago

 

[Hunter368]

A good pilot making a mistake that gets him shot down is ultimatly, a bad pilot.

Syscom you are a very smart person but that is a silly comment.

Muhammad Ali is the best boxer to ever live. His record was 56 wins (37 by KO) vs 5 losses. So using your logic the fact Ali had even 1 loss makes him a bad boxer?

Using your logic then ever single fighter pilot shot down in WW2 is a bad pilot?

WOW then that means almost ever single (99%) Ace of note was really a bad pilot. Well I guess all those medals they were given by their countries are for nothing, those pilots really fooled their leaders in believing all those planes they shot down really does not mean you are a good pilot just lucky or something.

So does that mean it is easier to be a "good pilot" the less combat you see? I mean if you never see combat you never will get shot down right? So the more flights you have, more combat you have the higher percentage chance you are going to turn out to be a bad pilot right?

So Sugar Ray Leonard is a bad boxer also? I mean he had 36 wins (25 by KO) but he still had 3 losses and 1 draw so if he lost a fight he is a bad boxer right?

Syscom that post was very silly naive and thats being polite. As Chris said you make mistakes also and that post of your is an example.

 

[syscom3]

Syscom you are a very smart person but that is a silly comment.

Muhammad Ali is the best boxer to ever live. His record was 56 wins (37 by KO) vs 5 losses. So using your logic the fact Ali had even 1 loss makes him a bad boxer?

Using your logic then ever single fighter pilot shot down in WW2 is a bad pilot?

WOW then that means almost ever single (99%) Ace of note was really a bad pilot. Well I guess all those medals they were given by their countries are for nothing, those pilots really fooled their leaders in believing all those planes they shot down really does not mean you are a good pilot just lucky or something.

So does that mean it is easier to be a "good pilot" the less combat you see? I mean if you never see combat you never will get shot down right? So the more flights you have, more combat you have the higher percentage chance you are going to turn out to be a bad pilot right?

So Sugar Ray Leonard is a bad boxer also? I mean he had 36 wins (25 by KO) but he still had 3 losses and 1 draw so if he lost a fight he is a bad boxer right?

Syscom that post was very silly naive and thats being polite. As Chris said you make mistakes also and that post of your is an example.

Big difference between war and civilian endevours

 

[Udet]

Erich:

Under continious bounce? Sounds like if they were not flying planes that were capable of dealing with the bouncers!


Hunter and Adler:

I urge you to consider the possiblity that mr. syscom ain´t human. He most probably came to earth in a meteor or alien craft.

 

[Civettone]

Ok, back on topic then. Did the Me 410s ever shoot down around 70 heavies with around 8 losses of their own?


Armed with a couple of MK 103s, it must have been a fantastic bomber destroyer.

Kris

 

[syscom3]

I urge you to consider the possiblity that mr. syscom ain´t human. He most probably came to earth in a meteor or alien craft.

8)

 

[Erich]

no but I am a definate non-human ! 8)

Kris that would be a total negative. At most the ZG's probably popped some 35 bombers but had at least a dozen of their a/c shot down. will have to do a look see through my ZG data files.

here is the info from 79th fs/20fg from Mr. Edwards in response to my query.........the plot thickens gents

11 February, 1944 will always be remembered as one of the darkest days in squadron history. Charged with providing cover for the rear section of 240 B-17 Flying Fortress bombers during their time over the target and until relieved during their return, the 20th Fighter Group were led into action by Lt. Colonel Robert Montgomery. Taking off at 1002, the pilots rendezvoused with the bombers over Bonn, Germany at 1145 and escorted them to the target and back as far as Neuchateau. From the point of rendezvous onward the 20th's P-38s were constantly bounced by small units of enemy single engine fighters. At 1235 they were relieved by a group of P-47 Thunderbolts.

Several flights dove to ground level and strafed targets of opportunity, including several factories in Germany, buildings at enemy airfields, flak towers, two radar stations, coastal fortifications, three locomotives and a flak ship. Ground fire was intense from nearly all these targets.

Yellow Flight, lead by Captain Robert Meyer, and Blue Flight, led by Lieutenant Merle Nichols, were bounced by three pairs of Messerschmitt Me-410s. Meyer scored a number of hits upon one of these aircraft and it was seen going into a steep, diving turn with smoke pouring out of its right engine. The pilot was believed to have been hit and was either killed or severely wounded. The aircraft would be scored later as a "probable." Lt. Nichols damaged another Me-410 during this encounter and during the flight back to King's Cliffe damaged two locomotives and a parked Me-109 at an airfield near the French-Belgian border. Lt. Bench damaged a Heinkel He-111 at the same airfield.

The mission was costly for the 20th Fighter Group, as eight of their forty-eight pilots sent out were lost. All of the pilots in the 79th Squadron's White Flight did not return, as well as two other 79th pilots and an additional two pilots from the 77th Squadron's White Flight. Of the eight two lost their lives, Lt. Donald Cooper; who had engine trouble during the return flight and was forced to bail out of his aircraft, and Lt. Joseph Minton of the 77th Fighter Squadron. All others except Lt. Col. Montgomery (who managed to evade despite suffering major injuries,) were captured and became prisoners of the Third Reich for the duration of the war.

Upon arriving back at King's Cliffe the Fightin' 79th was told to "stand down" for reorganization. As fate would have it twelve fresh replacement pilots reported for duty the next day. 79th C. O., Capt. Jackson told these new pilots to get in all the practice they could and to continue familiarizing themselves with the P-38. On 20 February Capt. Jackson himself was shot down and became a POW.

Cheers!

 

[Hunter368]

Big difference between war and civilian endevours

That is true but we are talking about humans being perfect.....that does not happen I don't care who you are or what you do.

I see this every day in my job. I am a Logistics Manager and I see millions of "actions" every year. (actions could be anything from data entry to receiving to shipping) I don't care who you are, the more actions you do the more mistakes you make. Sure some people are better than others but no one and I mean no one is mistake free.

So I don't care if it was or civilian endevours humans are still doing it and no human is perfect. So my examples I gave you are 110% valid, they prove that no human is perfect.

You were being bais b/c some 410 shot down a P-38 .......so you said the P-38 pilot had to been a rookie. No he did not "have to" be a rookie, he might of been sure but no one will know.

Like I said in my other post no one should be comparing a 410 to a P-38/47/51 anyways. 410 was not intended as a superiority fighter so why would anyone compare the two.

 

[Erich]

well why you guys decipher who was the better craft and pilot I am going to try and download exerpt from the official history which was just sent to me from pilot friend Art. it is a bit crooked but reveals little known details. Evidently ZG Bf 110G-2's were also trying to attack the P-38's as well as Me 410's and the Bf 109G's. Talk about chaos ........... let's see what I can do with this thing.

yeah right .......

 

[kiwimac]

The 410 was, in some ways, a useful aircraft. It was fast, packed a good punch and could, generally, look after itself in a fight. But was it the best use of scarce resources?

Would the RLM been better advised to put their money into FW-190s which packed much the same punch and which were better able to defend themselves AND cost less on a per aircraft basis?

 

[Udet]

Erich is it true most people -veterans and historians- of the many fighter and bomber groups of the USAAF cut their losses suffered in the ETO?

Meaning most know what their actual losses were but researchers, historians, scholars are presented with figures that have been deliberatedly manipulated.

 

[Udet]

Kiwimac, the use of resources is one of my point in this discussion; curiously it has only been super-mega syscom that has agreed on the issue.

 

[Erich]

Udet no I would not agree with that, now for an example but do not want to get OT from the thread design.

when my cousin was KIA on 26 November I went right to the German source -JG 301 diaries, REschke and a couple of other vets of the JG as well as directly to the 445th bg and 491st bg historians, paid the monies a received files of paper work over 2 inchs thick in both cases. went through everything that I could point a stick at. the 491st lost 16 B-24's, the 445th lost 5 B-24's, exactly matched the JG 301 kills confirmed. At first as it was a very black day for JG 301 with over 50 Fw 190A's shot down at least 30 pilots killed or wounded some incredible scoring was claimed ----------- over 50 US heavy bombers, soon after gun cam films were searched through, eye witness accts and the the B-24's cleaned over the amount of "kills" was reduced to the 21.

the acct by the 20th fg vet for Feb 11, 44 is going to take some work sadly ......

 

[Erich]

let me get to Kiwi's thoughts ............. pound for pound the Luftw. needed a full on bomber killer and the Me 41A and B variants were the hot ticket. If you would look at the arms details of the cannon fitted in the configurations you would see that the Me 410 a/c carried the full load of arsenal to make it happen against the US bomber formations. But their demise was the all inclusive US escort fighters ~ P-47 and P-51's

Udet antoehr battle sis the 445th over kassel on 27 Septmeber 44. although it has been constantly mentioned the B-24 group loast 28 B-24's indeed they lost 30 according to the kept 445th bg records and attested in some very graphic details by the surviving crewmen. All 3 Fw 190A-8 Sturmgruppen attacked from the rear and because of the nature of this beast flying slightly low and upward at speed and then through and off right or left, almost every Fw 190 pilot thought he had shot down a B-24. Some 56 B-24's were claimed destroyed with 24 shot out of formation - HSS - 6 P-51's were also claimed but in reality 1 was shot down.
32 Fw 190A-8 and SturmFw's were hit with 60-100 % damage and at least another 6 with under that 60 % figure of damages.
with regard for speeding through with an attack from the rear we must take into account that it would only take several seconds for each pilot to attack, sight in and fire and be gone with the air battle only taking a few minutes to transpire . . ........