What of the Me 410?

drgondog · Jun 1, 2008

lesofprimus said:
The replacement pool of pilots that the Jagdgruppen had to choose from was increasingly under-experienced novices who had never even fired their guns....

I remember reading recently in the Green Hearts/Dora book that Dortenmann went to the training staffel and took a few flights with some replacements, and came away disgusted and undermanned, as some pilots proficiency were so poor they couldnt hold standard formations together...

Fuel was a bigger problem, but the number of ZERO combat hour pilots of the luftwaffe that perished on their "maiden voyage" is staggering... Many brave youth took off simply to surrender their lives in the hope of doing their part for Mother Germany...

Giving the civilians that much longer to escape the Russians...

I was going through this older thread with interest when these coments popped up.

In my studies fo 355 air losses I found that 60% (25) of those lost in air to air (or suspected of lost in air) had less than 10 combat missions. 30% (12) had less than 30 missions. Three were Flight leaders (of the remaining four) and one was a Group Exec on the fifth Group mission of the war.

No Group CO, Group Ops, Squadron CO's, Squadron Ops or any aces were shot down by enemy air.

Even with an average flying time greater than their LW replacement pilot counterparts, it was the new guys that got whacked..

drgondog · Jun 1, 2008

Erich said:
no but I am a definate non-human ! 8)

Kris that would be a total negative. At most the ZG's probably popped some 35 bombers but had at least a dozen of their a/c shot down. will have to do a look see through my ZG data files.

here is the info from 79th fs/20fg from Mr. Edwards in response to my query.........the plot thickens gents

11 February, 1944 will always be remembered as one of the darkest days in squadron history. Charged with providing cover for the rear section of 240 B-17 Flying Fortress bombers during their time over the target and until relieved during their return, the 20th Fighter Group were led into action by Lt. Colonel Robert Montgomery. Taking off at 1002, the pilots rendezvoused with the bombers over Bonn, Germany at 1145 and escorted them to the target and back as far as Neuchateau. From the point of rendezvous onward the 20th's P-38s were constantly bounced by small units of enemy single engine fighters. At 1235 they were relieved by a group of P-47 Thunderbolts.

Several flights dove to ground level and strafed targets of opportunity, including several factories in Germany, buildings at enemy airfields, flak towers, two radar stations, coastal fortifications, three locomotives and a flak ship. Ground fire was intense from nearly all these targets.

Yellow Flight, lead by Captain Robert Meyer, and Blue Flight, led by Lieutenant Merle Nichols, were bounced by three pairs of Messerschmitt Me-410s. Meyer scored a number of hits upon one of these aircraft and it was seen going into a steep, diving turn with smoke pouring out of its right engine. The pilot was believed to have been hit and was either killed or severely wounded. The aircraft would be scored later as a "probable." Lt. Nichols damaged another Me-410 during this encounter and during the flight back to King's Cliffe damaged two locomotives and a parked Me-109 at an airfield near the French-Belgian border. Lt. Bench damaged a Heinkel He-111 at the same airfield.

The mission was costly for the 20th Fighter Group, as eight of their forty-eight pilots sent out were lost. All of the pilots in the 79th Squadron's White Flight did not return, as well as two other 79th pilots and an additional two pilots from the 77th Squadron's White Flight. Of the eight two lost their lives, Lt. Donald Cooper; who had engine trouble during the return flight and was forced to bail out of his aircraft, and Lt. Joseph Minton of the 77th Fighter Squadron. All others except Lt. Col. Montgomery (who managed to evade despite suffering major injuries,) were captured and became prisoners of the Third Reich for the duration of the war.

Upon arriving back at King's Cliffe the Fightin' 79th was told to "stand down" for reorganization. As fate would have it twelve fresh replacement pilots reported for duty the next day. 79th C. O., Capt. Jackson told these new pilots to get in all the practice they could and to continue familiarizing themselves with the P-38. On 20 February Capt. Jackson himself was shot down and became a POW.

Cheers!

I just took a look at the Macrs to get a better sense of the losses.

White Flight was bounced by ~ six Me 410s and in turn bounced Me 110s.

The clash took place north of Birkenfeld. As the 410's went through the formation from out of the sun, 2Lt Smutko chased them to the deck. He was not seen to be shot down but crashed north of Birkenfeld.

One other was hit in one engine in that pass (2Lt Keithley), he dropped to the deck and later radioed that he was returning home. He was hit by a flak battery near Moncornet and spun in.

Lt Hanzo was hit by a 190 just at R/V with the Jug Group and 2Lt Sands was hit by either 109s or 190s near Chateau d'Ardennes. Only one P-38 was suspected of going down to the Me 410s (Smutko).

All the rest went down in the Chateau d'Arvennes, Epioux, St.Aignon, Valenciennes area far west of Birkenfeld/Idar Oberstein area (about 80- 140 miles).

I've got some work to do to research the location of the ZG26 claims..

Tratt's three awards were at Idar Oberstein, "SQ-SR", and "SP-RP" but I'm not sure where those references are. A 3.//NJG 102 pilot was also awarded a P-38 at Idar Oberstein at the same time as Tratt. I suspect this was Smutko - no altitude given. Idar Oberstein is about 20 mi due east of Trier and about40 miles west/sw of Frankfurt where the clash started at 1235

The 13 P-38 awards were pretty evenly divided - 4 to twin engine, 4 to 109s of JG3 and 5 to Fw 190s of JG2 and JG26.

Since only 8 were lost, and one of the 8 seemed to have been damaged in the 410/110 fight, but later shot down by flak at Moncornet limping home - I suspect that only one of the 3 awards to Tratt (at best) were valid... and it would be either Tratt or the NJG 102 Me 110 pilot on the deck shooting down Smutko.

This is on the assumption that the Me 410s did NOT pursue the P-38s from Germany into eastern France and belgium.. but based on times of Tratt's claims it is certain he did not.

Maximowitz · Oct 6, 2008

Hawksley said:
Hi
I am trying to find a photogaph of Lt Wolfgang Wenning II./KG51.
Both he and Fw Gustav Delp(W/Op)were killed on 27/04/44 when in collision
with an Airspeed Oxford, near Frankton Rugby.

thanks,
Mike.

Bump!

In an associated search any information about Lt Dietrich Puttfarken of 5/KG51 would be much appreciated. Do any photographs of the KG51 intruder ME410's exist?

olbrat · Oct 7, 2008

Out of curiosity, could the Me410 have been used in the "fast bomber" capacity like the Mosquito? That is to say, accomplish unaccompanied lightning raids? Would it have had sufficient payload? Could Germany have sent it raiding in England to draw off resources and aircraft used over the continent?

Also, for speculation, how would such an aircraft have fared in the Pacific? I know it probably wouldn't have done well against Corsairs and Lightnings, but with it's range, firepower and payload, would it have done a good job as a night fighter against B29's, for example? Just curious.

HoHun · Oct 7, 2008

Hi Olbrat,

>Out of curiosity, could the Me410 have been used in the "fast bomber" capacity like the Mosquito? That is to say, accomplish unaccompanied lightning raids?

Yes, though performance and capabilities were not exactly identical. Against England, which had a highly concentrated air defense system, daylight missions (even low-level raids) would not likely have succeeded, however.

On the other side, it would have been hampered by the lack of a level bomb sight. There were plans to fit one for use by the gunner, but due to the cockpit layout this was a difficult task.

>Would it have had sufficient payload?

Probably yes, though not as much as the Mosquito.

>Could Germany have sent it raiding in England to draw off resources and aircraft used over the continent?

I doubt it. Allied response would only have been aggressive enough to obtain a favourable exchange ratio, making the enterprise un-economic for the Luftwaffe.

>Also, for speculation, how would such an aircraft have fared in the Pacific?

As Allied or as Japanese type?

>I know it probably wouldn't have done well against Corsairs and Lightnings

Due to its high speed, it probably wouldn't have been quite such a clear case compared to the Hellcat, though.

>but with it's range, firepower and payload, would it have done a good job as a night fighter against B29's, for example? Just curious.

I don't think a night fighter version was ever developed, but if you'd consider it for Wilde Sau operations, it might have been a good night fighter type. I'm not sure how it compares to the Irving in that role, though.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Njaco · Oct 7, 2008

Out of curiosity, could the Me410 have been used in the "fast bomber" capacity like the Mosquito? That is to say, accomplish unaccompanied lightning raids? Would it have had sufficient payload? Could Germany have sent it raiding in England to draw off resources and aircraft used over the continent?

I believe the Luftwaffe did just that with the Me 410s of SKG 10 and later used Ju 88s.

olbrat · Oct 8, 2008

Thanks HoHun, NJACO -

I suppose it could have been successfull in the PTO in a strike-fighter role something like the Bristol Beaufighter.

Does anyone know if Beaufighters directly combated the 110/210/410 aircraft in the ETO? If so, how did they compare?

Njaco · Oct 8, 2008

That sounds like a good idea for a seperate thread. Might get some good responses. I personnaly can't think of any outstanding action between the types.

Maximowitz · Mar 27, 2009

olbrat said:
Out of curiosity, could the Me410 have been used in the "fast bomber" capacity like the Mosquito? That is to say, accomplish unaccompanied lightning raids? Would it have had sufficient payload? Could Germany have sent it raiding in England to draw off resources and aircraft used over the continent?

They did use it like that. See Simon Parry's excellent book "Intruders Over Britain" for details of the exploits of KG2 and KG51 during '43-'44.

Sweb · Mar 27, 2009

My 2-cents is I always thought with a couple BMW801s on it that would have been a phenomenal close air support machine or a real problem for bomber formations. Round engine fan, here. Seriously, no twin will ever out-perform a single engine design. Great rate-of-roll is fun to watch but short turning radius is where the money's at. This takes into account all other things being equal with a prime emphasis on experienced piloting. Heavier twins just didn't have the nimbleness of the single engined types. Their only advantage was against bigger machines. I thought the 110, 210, 410 and 262 were profoundly misused designs and wartime Germany suffered accordingly.

tomo pauk · Mar 28, 2009

A huble disagreement in a single vs. twin debate:

The 1st time Mosquito was rolled out of factory, it was faster then the contemporary Spitfire. If we then calculate in the combat radius payload, second crew member, it´s certain who wins in comparison.
Also, let´s not forget the P-38, the plane that could take at any single-engined opponent. Esp. if we take a look at the Pacific war staistics.
As for the ´where the money is´ thingie, the boom zoom tactics effectively negated the turn radius as the key in air combat. It was the speed, firepower structural strength that counted.
While I also think that instead of 110-210-410 range the germans could build much better planes, please note that 110 could take against any opposition atleast untill late 1941, providing usage of boom-and-zoom.
The 262 was concieved in a belive that one jet engine is not sufficient to give superior speed for a plane with heavy armament. Since that was the true, 262 was not a failure.
Some of the twins that could compete with single engine fighters were the Fw-187, Westland Whirlwind and Gloster F.9/37.

davebender · Mar 28, 2009

I suspect it performed just fine in that role. Just as the previous Me-110 did. The problems begin when you attempt to use a light bomber like the Me-110 and Me-410 as a day fighter.

drgondog · Mar 28, 2009

Sweb said:
My 2-cents is I always thought with a couple BMW801s on it that would have been a phenomenal close air support machine or a real problem for bomber formations. Round engine fan, here. Seriously, no twin will ever out-perform a single engine design. Great rate-of-roll is fun to watch but short turning radius is where the money's at. This takes into account all other things being equal with a prime emphasis on experienced piloting. Heavier twins just didn't have the nimbleness of the single engined types. Their only advantage was against bigger machines. .

So sweb, the Me 262 with its crappy rate of turn will not out perform a P-40, a Spit or Mustang?

A P-38 out dueled by the Zero? or P-40 or Hurricane?

an F7F totally outclassed by say a P-47 or P-51 in air combat?

An F-15 at a disadvantage to an F-86?

I would suggest tha Roll is probably more important than turn, all else being equal.

But the point is that rarely was the twin matched up to the single 'with all else being equal' - the closest might be a P-38L versus a 109G/K

drgondog · Mar 28, 2009

Sweb - I totally agree the comments that LW missed too many decisions on their twins.. in reflection the only USAAF twin fighter was the 38 and the F7F was only USN bird purchased and deployed in WWII.

Njaco · Mar 30, 2009

Found something interesting in that Squadron/Signal book.

There is a pic of a crashed 210 and the caption states: "A Me 210Ca-1 night-fighter of 5/1. Night Fighter Squadron, known as Bagoly or Owl Squadron...."

Erich, do you know anything about this Hungarian unit, possibly?

Maximowitz · Mar 30, 2009

Njaco said:
Found something interesting in that Squadron/Signal book.

There is a pic of a crashed 210 and the caption states: "A Me 210Ca-1 night-fighter of 5/1. Night Fighter Squadron, known as Bagoly or Owl Squadron...."

Erich, do you know anything about this Hungarian unit, possibly?

I guess you missed this thread.

The Me 210 Ca-1 in Hungarian Service

All you'll ever need to know, Csaba is the leading authority on the Ca-1 and a really nice guy, he signed my copy.

Njaco · Mar 30, 2009

Thanks Max! Didn't know about that thread!

Magister · Mar 30, 2009

I would suggest that Roll is probably more important than turn, all else being equal.

drgondog, would you ascribe this as a significant reason for the P-47's success in attacking or escaping attacks?

drgondog · Mar 31, 2009

Magister said:
I would suggest that Roll is probably more important than turn, all else being equal.

drgondog, would you ascribe this as a significant reason for the P-47's success in attacking or escaping attacks?

would. Ditto Fw 190. Both excellent in many respects but a superior roll enables rapid changes of direction and reversals to disengage or acquire an advantage

Breizh · May 22, 2009

Does anyone know for sure if the Me 410B-2/U4, equipped with 2xMK103 and a BK5, was used operationally?

Thanks.

[edit] MK 103 + BK 5 is almost certainly one of those bogus reports in modern literature.

What of the Me 410?

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