What of the Me 410?

cheddar cheese · Mar 18, 2005

I disagree to an extent. The 110 became a great nightfighter, and while the 210 wasnt terribly great, the 410 was superb. I agree that it would have made more sence for the production of Fw-190's/Bf-109's at the later stages of the war however.

Anonymous · Mar 18, 2005

cheddar cheese said:
I disagree to an extent. The 110 became a great nightfighter, and while the 210 wasnt terribly great, the 410 was superb. I agree that it would have made more sence for the production of Fw-190's/Bf-109's at the later stages of the war however.

Yes it became a superb night fighter, but there were other planes that could have filled that role, or a dedicated night fighter could have been developed. Furthermore, most 110/210/410's were not night fighters. The project was generally a waste of resources, in particular the somewhat scarce DB engines. One of Germany's big problems in aircraft design was trying design one plane to perform too many mission types.

Again, I have to wonder what might have come out of the FW factories if they'd also been able to design some DB powered planes early in the war? Tank designed the FW190 around the BMW radial only because he had no choice, Messerschmitt had a lock on all DB inlines - many of which were wasted on 110/210/410's.

=S=

Lunatic

cheddar cheese · Mar 18, 2005

Yes I agree with all those points. Tank could have made some great aircraft with use of the DB-605, heck, even the Italians created some great fighters with the use of it.

CharlesBronson · Mar 18, 2005

There was a bunch of good germans single and twin engine fighters that should be cancelled due this"engine sharing" problem.

For example :

FW-187:

This aircraft was equipedd with the little ( 19,7 liters) Jumo 210GA de 700hp, but his design was keeping in mind the DB series.
Even so underpowered this slender aircraft can reach 530 K/h (A-0 series)
The V6 flew with a pair of DB600Aa of 1075 hp, the 32,7 liter Mercedes engine was a huge change for this figther and push it to the amazing at time ( 1939) 636 Km/h.

Other good aircraft ruined by the low DB-601 production was the fast He-100

cheddar cheese · Mar 19, 2005

Yep. I think both the Falke and the He-100 would have faired better in combat than the planes that were ordered instead of them (Me-110, Me-109)

Udet · Mar 19, 2005

Does anyone happen to know the name of any "famous" or noted USAAF ace who was reported getting shot down and killed by a Me 410?

An interesting question would be: why do the allies claim to have had marvelous twin-engined fighters (P-38 and Mosquito), while from the bulk of their reports all German twin-engined fighters get prescribed the "no match against our fighters" formula.

In view of all the manipulations the allies have conducted on so many matters and issues of the war, I do think doubt is necessary as well on the Me 410.

That the Me 410 might have had high losses can be very true (fundamentally on daylight Defense of the Reich duties), but that is another story. That does not make it hopeless.

The fact the Me 410 put the Luftwaffe back over England in significant numbers in 1944 can be very revealing, don´t you think?

So (i) it was either not that easy for Mosquitos or for any other allied fighters to caught at all, or (ii) perhaps the allies also manipulate their alleged "total saturation" of air space over France and the Channel in 1944 allowing swarms of Me410s to fly, cross the Channel and conduct their tasks over the island, or (iii) had such air saturation been so brutal, as depitced, the allied pilots might not have been that effcient in intercepting.

I agree with RG there however; it was how I opened this thread. The materials, engines and laborforce devoted to produce the rough 1,400 Me410s could have delivered the Germans, at least, 2000 more single engine fighters.

Anonymous · Mar 19, 2005

I would say in excess of 2800 more single engine fighters. Adding in the failed 210 and later 110's, and we are talking something on the order of 6000 more single engine fighters.

Can you give some details on this overwhelming success of the 410 over Britain in 1944? How many planes did they shoot down? How many did the loose? How many such sorties were accomplished?

=S=

Lunatic

Chocks away! · Mar 20, 2005

But all these planes gave a good account of themselves as night fighters/heavy fighters

Chocks away! · Mar 20, 2005

GT said:
As we all know, the Me 410 Hornisse was intended to replace the Me 210. The Me 410 was the result of trying to produce a Zerstörer after the failure with the Me 210. Me 410 was better than to any twin-engine German Zerstörer but it couldn't not hold its own against Allied fighters. Many Rüstsätze were produced for example an installment of guns up to 50 mm caliber and W Gr 21 rockets .

The main variant was the Me 410-B series (C, D, H did not enter operational status). Me 410 was withdrawn from combat by the end of 1944 because of the need to produce fighters. As only merely 1 160 a/c had been built when the production of the Me 410 ceased in Sept 1944 it made no important role in the air war over Germany.

Me 410 in combat

The night of 13-14 July 1943, FL/Lt Bunting, 85 Squadron flying a Mosquito XII on a night interception patrol shot down a Me 410 the a/c turned over on its back and dived vertically into the sea. It was the first Me 410 to be destroyed over Britain. Two nights later another was shot down by 85 Squadron. On 29 July a 3rd fell to the guns of the Mosquito from 256 Squadron and all 3 Me 410s was from VGruppe/KG 2.

22 Feb 1944, Hptm. Eduard Tratt the highest scorer Zerstörer pilot claiming 38 a/c in the air, 26 on the ground, 24 tanks, 312 trucks and 33 anti-a/c guns took over command of II./ZG76 in Sept 1943 and he made an foolhardy single-handed attack on a bomber formation near Nordhausen/Harz and was of course killed in the process, the escort FW 190s and Bf 109s from JG300 was unable to help him. The only eye-witness was Oblt. Prokopp who was killed a short time later when his Me 410 was rammed by a P-47.

13 May 1944 , One of the most disastrous missions for II./ZG76 was when they was jumped by 20 P-51s and 12 a/c were written of, many aircrews was lost and the US bomber force flew on unhindered to Poznan. Obefelwebel Wolfgang Martin rammed a B-17 with his damaged Me 410 after ordering his crew to bale out.

2 July 1944, I./ZG76 had notable mission when together with I./ZG 1 (Me 110) and II./JG 27 (Bf 109G) destroyed 45 a/c in a big air battle over Budapest, 34 were bombers and 8 were claimed by I./ZG76 without loss.
The Me 410 proved also to be quite a formidable adversary for the Mosquito's in the baby blitz 1943-1944 and one of the last units to operate the Me 410 was IV./ZG26 based in Norway.

http://www.ww2.web64.dk/fly/images/ger/images/me410.jpg

Cheers
GT

He did all that in an me 410? There should be more imformation on 410 aces around

Erich · Mar 20, 2005

just to make it perfectly clear, there was never a Me 410 night fighter. the a/c was used for intruder work and there is a difference....the a/c was never fitted with night fighter radar and used on operations

E ~

CharlesBronson · Jul 27, 2005

A 50 mm gun armed Me-410B-2 inspected by russian pilots.

Eduard Tratt managed to shoot down 5 P-38 while flying the Me-410A-1

vanir · Jul 27, 2005

I heard the 410 was at its core an attempt to recover from the failure of the 210 as a replacement for the 110. Apparently the 210 was unstable suffered design flaws. But the 410 did well in Hungarian service.

I agree the Fw 187 should've been put into service, it fit the specification of a long range fighter that Willy Messerschmitt never believed in and comfortably outperformed the 109B-D of the day.

The 410 certainly looks good though, do they come in a nice electric blue?

Udet · Jul 28, 2005

Have you noticed the nose of the present day USAF A-10 is kind of similar to that of the Me 410? Coincidence?

Mr. Charles Bronson certainly brought up an interesting issue: Eduard Tratt shot down 5 P-38´s in combat. This could add strenght to my view the Me 410 was a capable fighter, and not the "dunkin´ donut and coffee" depitced by the allied ghoulies.

Sadly, I could not recall nor find the name of a noted USAAF ace who got shot down and killed by a Me 410.

You know, you can easily find the kind of typical interview of some USAAF or RAF ace, the old man with a HUGE smile on his face -perhaps one more of relief to recall his days as flier and continue realizing he did not die during the war- telling the interviewer:

"I never ever saw a Me 410, because those of my group who went ahead surely wiped them all out".

As I said on this thread, the few articles, books and webpages focused on the Me 410 are wanting. Perhaps it is a plane that has nothing much to be discussed about.

Erich · Jul 28, 2005

going back a posting or two, it should read for the July 2, 44 missions II./ZG 1 as it had Bf 110G-2's with the rocket launchers and 4 2cm cannon fitted not I./ZG 1 which was fitted with JU 88C's and by later 44 had left it's pilot,crew personell to trade in for Fw 190A's.

The Pic by CB shows a 410 that was used against Soviet armor and MT in the ground support role as the 5cm Bk weapon no longer used agasint US heavies....

CharlesBronson · Jul 28, 2005

Erich said:
going back a posting or two, it should read for the July 2, 44 missions II./ZG 1 as it had Bf 110G-2's with the rocket launchers and 4 2cm cannon fitted.

Some Me-410B used a rotative 210mm, 7 shooter, gatling-like rocket launcher in the front bomb bay.

In fact the Me-410 used every weapon in the Luftwaffe arsenal, but the BK-7,5.

Erich · Jul 28, 2005

the rotating rocket launcher was a complete failure and enver used in action. It actually tore the nose right off the a/c during testing.

If anything was the multi-useage of different 2cm setups sometimes with the noted watering can idea of 8 forward firing 2cm's plus the twin Br 21cm rocket set-ups under each wing.

II./ZG 26 was first set up with the Me 410A in the bomber interceptor role in October 1943 followed by I gruppe. III./ZG 26 was basically decimated twice over flying the Bf 110G-2's. ZG 76 was later to have the Me 410's especially during the later part of 44 on the Ost front firing Bk 5cm weapons and the Mk 103 3cm against Soviet vehicles, armor and positions

cheddar cheese · Jul 29, 2005

CharlesBronson said:
Erich said:

going back a posting or two, it should read for the July 2, 44 missions II./ZG 1 as it had Bf 110G-2's with the rocket launchers and 4 2cm cannon fitted.

Click to expand...

Some Me-410B used a rotative 210mm, 7 shooter, gatling-like rocket launcher in the front bomb bay.

In fact the Me-410 used every weapon in the Luftwaffe arsenal, but the BK-7,5.

Woah...!

Jabberwocky · Jul 29, 2005

Its the .357 Magnum Express of the aviation world**

Now, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel luck, punk? Well, do 'ya?

**i.e. Too big, too heavy and no use at all

plan_D · Jul 29, 2005

CharlesBronson · Jul 29, 2005

the rotating rocket launcher was a complete failure and enver used in action. It actually tore the nose right off the a/c during testing.

I ve read that the problem with that mounting was in moment of shooting it, the enormous rocket blast and flash blinded the pilot, and burn in some degree the dural estructure of the aircraft s nose.

Aniway it probably was no too accurate.

What of the Me 410?

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