WHich bomber had the best defence

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Martin Caidin? Why, what's he done?

It's a growing list since joining this forum. William Green, Bill Gunston, Eric Brown and Dr Alfred Price are just a few I have read that are regarded as 'doubtful' here. The bookshelf is shrinking. Any others?
The others don't compare with Caidin. You put up a picture of 'Zero' (with introduction by Japanese Navy ace Saburo Sakai) but his much more infamous book was "Samurai" supposedly by Sakai. But it turned out Caidin wrote the book based on notes by a translator from interviews with Sakai, Caidin didn't even meet him. A lot of errors in that book have been pointed out since; not just perception errors by Sakai about the success of his unit (claimed 5 really downed 2, that sort of thing, which is par for the course); but stuff that's wrong from the Japanese side. Maybe Sakai misrecalled some of it, but again the book was apparently very lightly researched to fix any of that. The lack of confidence that any given statement in there really came from Sakai makes it an almost useless book IMO.

As FBJ said, the Italian P-38/YB-40 story is notorious Caidin tall tale with only the very loosest basis in fact (which doesn't relate to YB-40's).

Eric Brown: his best known book, "Duels in the Sky", is IMO very readable and entertaining, and somewhat informative too. As most know a lot of the book is Brown's comparatives of various WWII types that really met or didn't, a lot of the same stuff that's debated on forums such as this one. I have no problem with the book itself, just quotations from it that treat it as some kind of holy scripture. The comparisons are with benefit of Brown's test pilot experience, but not necessarily with benefit of actual combat results which Brown wasn't apparently as expert about.

Green: prolific writer about WWII types a long time ago; later writers in part inspired by people like him have found new and better info in many cases.

Gunston: more a modern a/c writer AFAIK, not WWII; very prolific, and often writing speculating about stuff for which better info eventually comes out.

Alfred Price: I don't know the problem is supposed to be with Price, nobody is perfect but IMO he's the highest quality writer you mentioned. Maybe people criticize Price for other things but cases I recall have been about his Osprey series book on Spitfire V aces cataloging the failure of Spit V's v Zeroes over Darwin 1943, and actually quite light Japanese losses, combat by combat. That topic strikes a funny nerve in some people, for whatever reason. But Price's source there is pretty clearly the Japanese official history (agrees with it anyway). He's not making it up or getting it from me or something :D . And as has been covered ad nauseum, all the best Western books about Pac War air combat of last 20+ years use that series, Senshi Sosho as a major source. There's no logical reason to believe it 'understated losses' more in combats with Spitfires (and Hurricanes mysteriously as well) than in combats with F4F's, P-40's etc. and those are the comparisons made. Plus it's never been shown grossly inconsistent with any other known Japanese sources at all (eg. US 'ultra' intercepts during the war about J air losses in particular combats, interviews w/ Japanese officers post war, many first hand books written in Japan, etc).

Price is a professional author (retired RAF IIRC) who writes a lot of books, not a part timer who gives long term heart and soul to one topic, and those are different approaches. But in general he's among the better of prolific pro's IMO. His "History of US Electronic Warfare" 3 vols. is among the best military topic books around, because he understands that difficult topic and explains it very well.

Joe
 
What I never understood was why the 20mm wasn't replaced by a 3rd .5 which would have resolved all of the above, while adding useful firepower. Some B-29Bs were equipped with 3 x .5s in the tail so the engineering 'fix' was available; never understood why the mod was never transferred to the main production run.
I believe that was a common retrofit in WWII, third .50. In any case by the time of the Korean War that was the standard fit. And later in that war some B-29's received faster firing M3 .50's in the tail only, 3 each.

Joe
 
I believe that was a common retrofit in WWII, third .50. In any case by the time of the Korean War that was the standard fit. And later in that war some B-29's received faster firing M3 .50's in the tail only, 3 each.

That's what I would have expected, but have never seen or read any evidence of same; never actually seen a photo of a 3 x .5 tail on a B-29B either for that matter! Have you any photos or references, Joe?
 
That's what I would have expected, but have never seen or read any evidence of same; never actually seen a photo of a 3 x .5 tail on a B-29B either for that matter! Have you any photos or references,
For Korea there are many, examples photo's would be on pages 12 and 13 of Dorr "B-29 Superfortress Units of the Korean War" or the last photo in Futrell's "USAF in the Korea (official history), sorry no scanner handy. Triple M3's retrofitted later in that war is mentioned in Far East Air Force AF Bomber Command documents from late 1952.

For WWII, I'm pretty sure I've read that it was also done, but couldn't prove it. The initial standard move was just to remove the 20mm, that's pretty clear. Futtrell in "Blankets of Fire" p. 137 notes that not a lot of Japanese fighters attacked from the rear in the intial daylight phase over Japan, and the Japanese night fighter threat was never that severe, relatively, and weight reduction was an ongoing goal. By the time the triple M3's for triple M2's retrofit was being discussed the main threat was MiG-15 nightfighters, and the tail gunner was far the most likely to get a good shot at those if anyone was; *only* the tail guns were to be replaced by the faster firing M3's.

Joe
 

Thanks for your in-depth author appraisal JoeB. Very informative...and a little depressing, as I look around at my bookshelves groaning under the weight of books/magazines from the seventies! Time marches on.
 
maybe off topic, but also some B-17 were modified by 20 mm cannon in tail...
one off them crashed few miles away from here, ser. No. 42-31885...
we were pretty kicked out when a friend of mine found 20 mm shells at the crash place... the picture of the rests of this machine shows the same...

more at 20 mm cannon aboard a B-17G???
 
maybe off topic, but also some B-17 were modified by 20 mm cannon in tail...
one off them crashed few miles away from here, ser. No. 42-31885...
we were pretty kicked out when a friend of mine found 20 mm shells at the crash place... the picture of the rests of this machine shows the same...

more at 20 mm cannon aboard a B-17G???

Damn, 4got 2 attach the mentioned picture, I´m getting old:rolleyes:
 

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...and now I realized that on the other forum I´ve asked if someone is able to identify where the 0.50 twins come from...Chin or tail? If from tail, it would mean that this cannon had to be somewhere else, maybe in the radio room:?:
So what do you think, guys?
Hope I haven´t posted this picture and question on this forum before, if so, I apologize:oops:
 
The 50 cal mgs carried in the tail of the various bomber had more range and could hit more easily at long range than the 20 mms in use at that time. The Betty carried a 20 mm stinger in the tail.
 
Eric Brown, though I am sure was an experienced pilot, was one of the most biased authors I have read.
 
Operations researchers found that heavy defensive armament on bombers increased casualties in a heavily defended operated: the increase in weight and drag slowed bombers, so more were needed, and the large crews meant that the number of casualties with each aircraft lost increased.

While this was, no doubt true, I think it overlooks a different problem: before smart weapons, massed bomber raids were necessary for the sort of suppression a couple of aircraft with smart bombs could do today: even if, as I've seen written, a Mosquito could deliver the same mass of bombs on Berlin as could a B-17, a 500-Mosquito formation would not be able to use the Mossie's superior speed or maneuverability to escape. The USAAF also found, quite the hard way, that bomber defensive armament, no matter how massive, could not reduce aircraft losses to a sustainable level. I have no real way of reliably analyzing the data, but I suspect that, had the USAAF removed the waist gunners and their associated weapons and ammunition, the numbers of bombers lost would not have changed, as each bomber could have carried 500 lb or so more bombs and, with the big holes that waist gunners shot through closed up, been slightly faster.
 
even if, as I've seen written, a Mosquito could deliver the same mass of bombs on Berlin as could a B-17, a 500-Mosquito formation would not be able to use the Mossie's superior speed or maneuverability to escape.

That sounds like you expect a formation of 500 Mosquito bombers to operate in roughly the same as 500 B-17s. That is, in formation, bombing as a unit.

Which is unlikely, since the B-17 formations were mainly about creating zones of mutual defensive fire.
 
That sounds like you expect a formation of 500 Mosquito bombers to operate in roughly the same as 500 B-17s. That is, in formation, bombing as a unit.

Which is unlikely, since the B-17 formations were mainly about creating zones of mutual defensive fire.

I don't doubt that you're correct, but what would be the best way to organize a daylight raid to drop a thousand tons or so of bombs on someplace in Germany?
 
I don't doubt that you're correct, but what would be the best way to organize a daylight raid to drop a thousand tons or so of bombs on someplace in Germany?

That would be highly dependent on the target.

If it is a city, then I doubt the Mosquito could do it.

If it is a factory, or series of factory buildings, a low level raid could be quite successful, and probably not require as many bombers. But that depends on the target being within range at Sea Level, as the best attack would be to remain low the whole trip, thereby maximising the chances of catching the defences by surprise.

It would be difficulty to maintain that for long, so for medium or high altitude attacks I would think Mosquitoes would head to target in smaller groups, bomb individually (theoretically achieving higher accuracy) and then heading home. A much higher cruise speed would be used than possible by B-17s, particularly in the target area.
 
even if, as I've seen written, a Mosquito could deliver the same mass of bombs on Berlin as could a B-17,

This belongs over in one of the myth threads.
B-17s averaged 4000lbs of bombs in raids on Berlin (actually they did better than that) because while they could routinely carry 5000lb of HE bombs, when carrying the less dense (or bulkier) incendiary bomb loads the incendiary load weighed a lot closer to 3000lbs, giving the 4,000lb average.
Mosquitos (at least the majority of them) could only carry 4,000lbs when using the 4000lb cookie. When using normal 500lb bombs they could carry four inside and sometimes two outside. 2000lbs or 3000lb bomb loads.

I would also note that Mosquito carrying 500 Imp gallons of gas and a 4000lb cookie is over max gross weight and that doesn't count crew weight.
 
Mosquitos (at least the majority of them) could only carry 4,000lbs when using the 4000lb cookie.

Not true.

They could also carry the 4,000lb Medium Capacity bomb.

I would also note that Mosquito carrying 500 Imp gallons of gas and a 4000lb cookie is over max gross weight and that doesn't count crew weight.

And, yet, thy still managed to do that, night after night.
 
There are other limitations for the Mosquito.

They could carry 2 x 1,000lb MC or GP bombs, or Target Indicators, but only with the bulged bomb bay.

Earlier tests had a 1,000lb GP bomb and 2 x 500lb MC bombs in the rear fuselage, but this was not used operationally. The 1,000lb GP bomb was smaller in diameter than the 1,000lb MC bomb, but only had a charge to weight ratio of 25-30%. So, basically a similar amount of explosive as 2 x 500lb bombs.

The 1,900lb GP bomb would not fit without the bulged bomb doors, and was rarely used anyway. No 2,000lb Medium Capacity bomb was developed by the British.

The American 1,000lb and 2,000lb GP bombs could not fit on account of their large tail assemblies.

So the success of the Mosquito in a strategic bombing role would be very much limited to the target and the type of attack required. Targets requiring a large amount of bombs in an area, such as the city bombing attacks, would require large numbers of Mosquitoes. More precise attacks on smaller targets they could do.
 
A successful area raid (or area type raid as the Americans preferred to euphemistically call them) requires a concentration of bombing in space and time to be most effective. Bomber Command concentrations meant that an aircraft bombed every 4-10 seconds for the duration of the raid. At Dresden 240+ aircraft of 5 Group dropped 881.1 tons of bombs (43% incendiary by weight) between 22.13 and 22.28 at a rate of about one load every 3.7 seconds. That's near enough 1 ton of bombs being delivered every second. It was an outstanding performance, and is why this first wave of the raid was a destructive as it was. It is difficult to see how an aircraft like the Mosquito (or B-17 for that matter) could achieve anything approaching this weight and concentration of bombs, even if available in large numbers.
I don't know how concentrated the US bombing was in these terms, but given the large formations and their system of toggling on the leader it must have been comparable in time if not total weight.
Having many small groups of aircraft bombing over a protracted period is unlikely to create the desired effect, that is destruction by fire, creation of a fire storm. It's why Bomber Command and the 8th Air Force, when the latter engaged on this type of raid, carried a substantial incendiary load.
The smaller Luftwaffe bombers shuttle bombed British cities over long winter nights, flying two or even three sorties and the British quickly realised that this reduced the effectiveness of the total weight of ordnance dropped and particularly that of the high percentage of incendiaries dropped.
Cheers
Steve
 
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