The P51 has improved a lot in the last 11 years, since we fixed the oil leaks on Merlins.
Which is better: P-47 or Fw-190?
- Thread starter mosquitoman
- Start date
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Less capable is probably not the the best choice of words I could have used.
I however was referring to the fact that the P-47 was more multi-role than the P-51. Not only was it a good escort fighter, but was better suited than the P-51 for ground support roles for instance.
Most of all I was referring to the fact that I believe it is overshadowed by everyone doing the "Oh, Ah P-51...".
I understand you are a die hard P-51 "freak" (self proclaimed), but there where many great aircraft used in the second world war.
GregP
Major
My posts from when I was unemployed are best forgotten. 10 years ago? I'm sure most of us don't even think the same way as we did 10 years ago.
Well, maybe Bill Cosby ... nah, not even him. I bet he doesn't buy the same drugs today or use them the same way.
Could be wrong there ...
Well, maybe Bill Cosby ... nah, not even him. I bet he doesn't buy the same drugs today or use them the same way.
Could be wrong there ...
You're waiting for me to do what? I didn't see a question in your last post....I don't disagree with what you said about the P-47...
Seemed like you did, since you felt the need to ask me about it. I answered, and was looking forward to a response.
It's called conversation. It's why the forum exists...
Seemed like you did, since you felt the need to ask me about it. I answered, and was looking forward to a response.
It's called conversation. It's why the forum exists...
Fair enough. I agree the P-47 was better than the P-51 in certain respects. It was much tougher and could carry more, making it a much better choice for ground support roles. However, in air to air combat rolls the P-51 was superior...
At what altitude? Under what conditions.
All of the top fighters had advantages and disadvantages over the others. That includes the P-51...
Some turned better. Some climbed better. Some rolled better. The pilot who knew how to use his aircrafts advantage over the other was going to win.
Over 15,000 feet the P 47 wins hands down until the P51B/C is introduced.
If we're talking about the P-51B or later models, any altitude or conditions...I can't think of any situation where the 47 would outclimb or outturn the 51...the 47 may roll faster, and it dives faster (as It should, it was as heavy as a tank!)
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When I refer to the 51, I'm generally speaking about the Merlin powered ones...the "A" models were only good at low level and generally weren't intended to be used in air to air combat rolls....
I know, but the US and German bombing raids created a specific need, most air to air combat was conducted a short distance from where the plane took off and was at low level.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The NA-73 was conceived and designed as a fighter (air to air combat) from the beginning.
The P-47D-22 saw the introduction of the larger prop and put the P-47's RoC very close to that of the P-51D and that change also came as a huge surprise to the Luftwaffe, who, up to that point, were accustomed to climbing away from the P-47 in a fight.
That's true about the original 51 being designed as an air to air fighter, but due to the Allison's poor high altitude performance, the "A" model was relegated to low level missions...
The low level mission and air-to-air fighting are not mutualy exclusive things
Of course we know (do we?) that there was a P-51 before P-51A (and P-51A was better at altitude), along with A-36, indeed. And even A-36 was used as escort fighter.
Of course we know (do we?) that there was a P-51 before P-51A (and P-51A was better at altitude), along with A-36, indeed. And even A-36 was used as escort fighter.
Shortround6
Major General
And there were 620 Mustang Is before the first "P-51". two became XP-51s.
Mustang I being a better P-40 D-E/ Kittihawk. deliveries starting about the same month Aug-Sept of 1941 although Kittihawk production was much, much higher in early months.
May 29th 1940 was when the British ordered the first 320 Mustang Is (off the drawing board) so a questions as to altitude performance or air to air combat intentions are pretty vague at this point. First Tomahawks (ex french contract) won't show up in England until Aug or Sept of 1940.
Mustang I being a better P-40 D-E/ Kittihawk. deliveries starting about the same month Aug-Sept of 1941 although Kittihawk production was much, much higher in early months.
May 29th 1940 was when the British ordered the first 320 Mustang Is (off the drawing board) so a questions as to altitude performance or air to air combat intentions are pretty vague at this point. First Tomahawks (ex french contract) won't show up in England until Aug or Sept of 1940.
AlfaKiloSierra
Airman
- 46
- Aug 16, 2019
And in fact after that was introduced. The only altitude at which a 67" P-51B (which is faster than P-51D) can outrun a 70" P-47D is around the first stage supercharger crit alt of the P-51. See wwiiaircraftperformance.org, I compared the two before
AlfaKiloSierra
Airman
- 46
- Aug 16, 2019
Depends on the year. After July 24, 1944 no Fw 190 A could outrun, out-climb any P-47D except at very low altitude near 750m. The Fw 190 A-8 was cleared for operation at 1.65ata boost, 2700rpm in July 1944 [1]. As such, it can reach 651 kph at 5500m, and 591 kph at 750m, and significantly worse anywhere else [2]. The P-47 was cleared for operation at 70" boost, 2700rpm on June 24, 1944 [3]. As such, it reaches 430 mph at 18000ft, and 360 mph at 2460ft, and consistently everywhere else up to 23100ft [4]. Now, 360 mph is less than 591 kph, and 430 mph is much more than 651 kph. This is the speed. For climb, Fw 190 reaches 14m/s at 4900m, and 18m/s at sea level, and significantly worse elsewhere [1], and P-47 reaches 3200ft/min at 16000ft, and slightly less than 3200ft/min at sea level, and around that at all altitudes up to 18000ft [5]. 3200ft/min is significantly more than 14m/s, but less than 18m/s.
[1] http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/td284.pdf Pg 3, Pg 5
[2] http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/Fw_190_A-8_15-3-44.pdf Pg 7
[3] http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/24june44-progress-report.pdf
[4] http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p47d-44-1-level.jpg
[5] http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p47d-44-1-climb.jpg
That's the case after July 1944. Before the P-47 had the 70" boost clearance, however, the situation is drastically different, especially with the P-47s that lacked the Hamilton Standard propeller, which the one tested above has. I don't have enough time to explain that though.
[1] http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/td284.pdf Pg 3, Pg 5
[2] http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/Fw_190_A-8_15-3-44.pdf Pg 7
[3] http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/24june44-progress-report.pdf
[4] http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p47d-44-1-level.jpg
[5] http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p47d-44-1-climb.jpg
That's the case after July 1944. Before the P-47 had the 70" boost clearance, however, the situation is drastically different, especially with the P-47s that lacked the Hamilton Standard propeller, which the one tested above has. I don't have enough time to explain that though.
