Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
Take a careful read on NACA 868. The chart that most peopple trot out from that report is not a measured roll rate for ANY of the aircraft on the chart.
It is the pb/2V roll helix angle calculated at 10,000 feet with 50 pounds of side force applied to the stick. In real life, most aircraft cannot meet the ideal helix angle, most didn't fight at 10,000 feet in Europe and, in combat, people applied whatever force was necessary to get the desired rersult or to hit the control stop, whichever happened first.
As a rough rule of thumb, the density of the air at 20,000 feet is one half that at sea level. So at 20,000 feet, you had to apply twice the aileron to get the same result as at sea level. Roll gets lot slower as you go up from there.
That information is not very evident if you just look at the chart. You have to read the report to find out the chart conditions. The conditions ar about 2 pages or so before the chart in the report.
So the chart isn't measuring real world roll rates ...
Well I would too if the pilot knew what they were doing right up to the limit. On a race circuit I have seen a rider brake earlier than me, but not as hard as I was breaking, let the brakes off too early and fly off the circuit in a blaze of crap, With the 109 it depended how much you were prepared to push things once the LE slats deployed, as I understand it, for the aces in the LW that was when the "fun" started for others it induced a sense of panic.
You are obsessed with turning and rolling. Take one plane that is best at turning and rolling and another which has 30MPH advantage in speed. Now you are in one of the aircraft and spot a flight of four of the others, do you want to out turn and roll 4 enemy aircraft or just get out of their place?Fun unless he was against an experienced Spitfire pilot, in which case he was probably never heard from again and his 'experten' pals would be pouring out some schnapps on the tarmac in his memory that night.... Spitfire can easily out turn the 109. Wing loading is ~30% lower with a more efficient wing.
Yes we discussed Stalins memo.Thought this might be of interest. I mentioned that the Russians were very keen to get their hand on more Spitfires and P39's and were not asking for P40's. Also there were some observations that the Russians were not that keen on the Spitfire.
Attached is an internal memo held at the National Archives which shows just how keen the Russians were on getting their hands on Spits and P39's.
View attachment 522698
.
You are obsessed with turning and rolling. Take one plane that is best at turning and rolling and another which has 30MPH advantage in speed. Now you are in one of the aircraft and spot a flight of four of the others, do you want to out turn and roll 4 enemy aircraft or just get out of their place?
. The ability to turn is just one aspect, you say "an experienced Spitfire pilot" any experienced pilot uses his advantages and minimises disadvantages. Turning performance is across the whole speed range not just the speed which produces the minimum turning radius, there were many German aces perfectly confident of taking on a Spitfire, they shot many down and lived to tell the tale.
You are obsessed with turning and rolling. Take one plane that is best at turning and rolling and another which has 30MPH advantage in speed.
I don't mean to cast doubt on this document, but there is so much wrong in the image, I don't know where to start.Thought this might be of interest. I mentioned that the Russians were very keen to get their hand on more Spitfires and P39's and were not asking for P40's. Also there were some observations that the Russians were not that keen on the Spitfire.
Attached is an internal memo held at the National Archives which shows just how keen the Russians were on getting their hands on Spits and P39's.
View attachment 522698
.
this is a good example of your single track approach to a complex issue. In a dogfight there were other factors which have the Spit IX the advantage over a P51,namely climb, acceleration agility plus others.By the way, if a 30 mph advantage in speed was always more important than turning and rolling ability, then the P-51B would be a much better fighter than a Spitfire Mk IX... is that what we really think? It would make a MiG 3 superior to the Bf 109E. It would make a P-39 far superior to an A6M. But that is not how it typically shook out.
this is a good example of your single track approach to a complex issue. In a dogfight there were other factors which have the Spit IX the advantage over a P51,namely climb, acceleration agility plus others.
ps thanks for the links to the P40 Russian site.
Climb rate for the P-40L was 3,300 fpm so not that wide a margin if any. Wikipedia says Typhoon climbs at 2,900.Speed alone may not be good enough, but unlike most (or all?) of your examples the Typhoon could outclimb the P-40F by a fair margian. We can argue back and for a bit about when each type got approved for higher engine ratings
Quite a stretch, in fact I don't think even you believe what you are trying rather slyly to imply here. P-40L had a wing loading of 33 lbs per sq ft. vs 41 for the Typhoon.Once again climb rate is an indicator of excess power and as such indicates (but does not prove) better sustained turning performance.
And the Typhoon will out dive a P-40. Limiting speed with 8 under rockets and ...
Some pilots may well have dived their P-40s at 500mph + contrary to the instructions in the manual but since the Typhoon was listed at 525 that pretty well covers it.
So the Typhoon is faster, climbs better, dives better (or at least as good) has better firepower (after they switch to the cannon)
yeah, I can see how rolling better means the P-40 is the superior fighter. not
Climb rate for the P-40L was 3,300 fpm so not that wide a margin if any. Wikipedia says Typhoon climbs at 2,900.
What I find irritating is your habit of going from one source to another depending on what is most convenient to your argument.Climb rate for the P-40L was 3,300 fpm so not that wide a margin if any. Wikipedia says Typhoon climbs at 2,900.
If the P40 was safe at 500mph+ then the VNE would be 500mph+. It isn't, the VNE is 480mph and its that for a reason. The reason is when you start going over 480mph there is an increased danger that something is likely to go very wrong, very quickly. I would expect British test pilots to take the Typhoon past the 525mph limit because that's what test pilots do, they test the aircraft.I guess you missed my post about the Curtiss test pilot who personally flew the check out flights for over 2,000 P-40's and as part of the routine process dove them from 20,000 to 10,000 ft reaching "500+" mph each time, noting that "it was pretty much impossible to damage a P 40 in a dive."
Correct, you do and the following is a classic exampleI think you see what you want to see.
Because the P40 operated in an environment where the Germans were more active and there were less Allied fighters to provide top cover. However you know this but will not acknowledge it.P-40F and L pilots alone shot down nearly twice as many enemy aircraft as pilots flying Typhoons, even though more Typhoons were produced and the Typhoon was in combat longer.
Certainly the wing design wasn't a thing of beauty but it didn't stop it having an excellent performance and it did have one advantage. It helped it pull out of a diveThe Typhoon was equipped with a very powerful engine and was heavily armed & fast.
It also had a 41' wingspan with a notoriously badly designed wing that was far too thick and created very high drag. This had all kinds of knock on effects.
It tuned well enough to get one good burst in when in test combat with a Spit Vb and I see no reason why it couldn't do the same with a P40. One burst from the 4 x 20mm into a lightened P40, with reduced armour is likely to be all you need.It turned poorly with a high wing loading and had one of the poorest roll rates of any single engined fighter flying in 1943.
Which were fixed and it didn't stop the VNE being 45mph faster than the P40. Two points you never acknowledge when posting. You just keep repeating that the Typhoon suffered catastrophic failures ignoring the fixIt was extremely heavy and suffered from catastrophic structural failures.
The ones that got homeUsually a good fighter either rolls well or turns well. The P 40F could do both, and dive 500 mph. Pilots said they trusted it to get them home. How many Typhoon pilots said the same?