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Just something to think about here...
My uncle started out with the P-36 and as the war got underway in the Pacific, was assigned briefly to the P-39 and then the P-38 for the duration.
He hated the P-39 with a passion and spoke highly of the P-38. However, his passion was the P-36 and said that had it been armed better, it would have been a deadly adversary to the A6M NOT because of speed but it's ability to hold it's energy in a turn. His thoughts on engaging an adversary were that speed allowed you the luxury of dictating when and where you confronted the enemy but being able to out perform the adversary was #1.
In otherwords, you can be the fastest ride on the block, but that doesn't mean sh!t unless you can take down your opponent...
I'd say, Bill, that if one had a choice between a P-40 and P-51, the choice would be obyious, and please note I didn't ever say anybody would pick a P-40 over a P-51. Where exactly did that come from?
Why obvious Grep? The primary performance difference between a P-51 and the P-40 was speed with the same engine, but the P-40 had a slightly better roll and turn rate. The P-51B with the Merlin gained in Excess Power to increase Speed despite GW increase and also increased climb - but turn and roll remained with the P-40? So which performance attribute do you not like about the P-40?
Since I'm an engineer, I'm well aware of the formula for kinetic energy.
Ah, so you say. But you demonstrate zero grasp when differentiating MV with respect to time Somehow the concept of the climb performance characteristics between the P-51H and D seemed to elude you, as well as the features of lower drag when comparing same power - but perhaps a quick refresher in Physics 101 would help you to move on to Free Body diagrams.
Anybody who thinks about it doesn't expect a spec for fighting at medium speed. But you NEVER get the chance to get to maximum speed if you are bounced or if the bombers you are escorting are bounced while you are cruising overhead.
In a word BS. Most folks knowledgeable in the tactics of WWII escort fighters will comprehend a roll and split S to follow an attacker - or a turn into a diving attacker followed by a reversal into a diving turn. Are you serious Greg. Go back to the Energy equations you speak so knowledgeably about above? Recall Energy is both a function of Kinetic and Potential (based on elevation datum)Energy? So what happens Greg when said fighter converts Potential Energy by initiating a dive and chase? Does it slow down? Does it find an equilibrium at an intermediate speed - or quickly approach top level speed - and beyond?
You get bounced at whatever speed you are going at the time. Your ability to get to maximum speed will be zero unless you roll over and head for the ground immediately. If the guys who bounced you come from above, they are already much faster than you and are no doubt back above you and can probably catch you anyway even if you accelerate with WER power.
So, back to US Fighter Tactics 101 - when attacked from above, make an immediate turn into the attacker and then follow - or not - into a dive to chase. The Germans largely were familiar with Your tactic and repeatedly attempted to dive away from an attack from above - such tactics were often successful in the East, were occasionally successful during BoB with the carb set up of the Merlin, but rarely successful against the faster US fighters (exception P-38 )
I suppose we'll just have to disagree.
You keep saying that - but keep repeating silly statements - then saying that. Try this. Gather Facts - historical or mathematical-engineering. Leave anecdotes alone, you're not good at it, you don't source them, and you don't frame them with context.
And you should get your head back to the bombers since that was the primary mission of the P-51 in the ETO, unless we read completely different histories. What was aked about were the important qualities of a fighter in order.
I truly wonder if you are well read on ETO history, tactics and objectives. I truly doubt it. I recommend (Highly) that you Google "The Long Reach - Deep Fighter Escort Tactics", published by VIII Fighter Command, 29 May 1944. If you can't find it, I have reproduced in "Our Might Always, starting page 496, about 10 pages from Hub Zemke, Everett Stewart, and others discussing ALL aspects of the mission, the formation tactics, the engagement processes, and most of all - the ATTITUDE which is Attack. If you understand what the leaders of those escort fighters convey to you, you will stop blathering
I never said speed wasn't important, I said it wasn't at the top ... and I don't think it is. If so, then surely a follow-on fighter should be faster than the one before it. That hasn't been the case since the F-15 came out 40+ years ago. I don't think an F-22 can catch an F-15. But it has WAY better avionics and can make moves an F-15 can't.
All true - but the top speed and cruise speed for a Stealthy airframe was the top airframe spec for the F-22. It represented a quantum leap over the F-117 which was its progenitor - not the F-15.
The F-15 was preceded in design approach by the F-16 (Extension of Lightweight Fighter Concept) but flew first and its primary difference (both designed for high top speed was the radar dish size which gave the F-15 a greater threat capability air to air in stand off - but required a bigger airframe and more power to approach the F-16 air to air maneuverability. Nobody in the USAF that flies the Lawn Dart is particularly awed by the F-15, F-14, F-18 but it can't 'see' as far to engage air to air missles in stand off as the F-15
There were versions of the Bf 109 that, at the right height, were faster than a P-51. I'd still take the P-51, myself. The Spitfire also wasn't the fastest steed in the cloest, but I'd take one if I knew I was in for a fight.
And there was a version (P-51H) that was faster than the 109K-4. The mark XIV was slightly faster than the P-51B (all versions) and as fast as the 109K-4 but would out turn and out climb both. So, may we remind ourselves that the focus was to shove more HP into same airframe to get more SPEED.
We very probably have the same characteristics in mind for a fighter, but don't have them quite in the same order you do and likely won't. I don't need a re-education every time we talk with one another. We see much the same information with a slight shuffle of what was more important. In the relative world of personal opinion we really aren't all that far apart since we both see to be fans of the same war.
I sort of like it that we have different opinions because it keeps it interesting.
You know, Bill, I honestly think he would have dropped the P-38 if he could have gotten back into a P-36.
He honestly felt that there was a great deal of overlooked potential and when people would point out that the P-40 was just a "P-36 with a water-pumper" he'd reply with "Bullsh!t...night and day!"
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You know, Bill, I honestly think he would have dropped the P-38 if he could have gotten back into a P-36.
He honestly felt that there was a great deal of overlooked potential and when people would point out that the P-40 was just a "P-36 with a water-pumper" he'd reply with "Bullsh!t...night and day!"
As far as his P-38 experiences versus IJN/IJA adversaries, he certainly used speed to his advantage, it was a great tool for ambush just as much as it was a great tool for survival when things got a little too "hot". While his rides may have been roughed up on a few occasions, he was never shot down, so he definately knew his (and his opponents) limitations.
Perhaps he was a bit "old school", he did have his start with the USAAC, after all...
Many pilots claimed they were "ruined" as newer versions came out.
F-22 top speed, Mach 2.25 (estimated)
F-15 top speed, Mach 2.5
Pbehn,
I don't think those speed comparisons are correct (F22vF15). I could be wrong though...
Bill,
Apparently you lack the facility for civil discussion and are again resorting to condescending insults.
No, I do have the facility, and frequently the inclination. Look to the mirror however if you seek examples of the condescending and supercilious reposte while layered with abundant sweetness.
Why not try to discuss like an adult instead of resorting arguing like a child? I reserve the right to state my observations and opinions ... just the same as you do, and I can see that you seemingly must focus on our differences rather than what our observations have in common.
Now, I'm gonna cry. OK Greg, try going back to the multiple threads of blather that you have posted in this thread and try an exercise?
For every instance where you say Speed is not at the top of the AAF or RAF fighter design requirements, list your own - in rank - and tell us how the fighter(s) you wish to pose as examples, 1.) deviated from High Speed to 'XYZ' and 'ABC' to achieve the Requirements YOU think were more important, and 2.) show how those fighters attained dominance over both the target adversary as well as emerged superior to a comparable timeline competitor.
So, in the future please just just leave me alone and I'll reciprocate. Promise.
Got those from Wiki - it seems the F-22's top speed may be classified.
F-22 pilots at Kadena, after mock dogfights with -15's, have told me in effect "the -22 is a little faster at the top than a -15"
It gets there faster too...
In same conversation, pilots were telling me it usually takes at least 3 and usually 4 -15's to take out a -22.
Comments made during maintenace debriefing.
Full disclosure: I am not a pilot and am only repeating what the pilots told me.
I'd like to hear what they'd have to say about the 22 vs a 16...I'm sure the 22 is faster, but the 16 has got to be much more maneuverable...