Who do you think shot down the Red Baron?

[Dernancourt]

I have voted for Sgt Popkin. My Fathers Father, (my grandfather) Henry (Harry) Heywood, was in the 24th Machine gun company with Cedric Popkin. Grandpa, had a first hand account of the event. Over the meal table for decades after the war, he told his four children of the war events he took part in. Much detail was passed on to his children, (My father being one). Grandpa believed that Popkin shot the bullet that killed Baron Manfred Von Richthofen. On all the previous approaches by The Baron, in his aircraft, the soldiers on the ground headed for their dugouts for safety from air-fire. But Popkin got tired of this, and on this occasion stayed out on his Vickers and proceeded to fire at the plane. He (Popkin) was described as a bit of a risk taker, by Grandpa, and wanted to put an end to the threat imposed by The Red Baron. Dale Titler in his book has a copy of the photo in the London Museum of the four soldiers in the 24th machine gun company. Harry is next to Cedric in the middle. I would be interested to know the names of the other two soldiers.

 

[The Basket]

PTSD and the head wound were certainly factors.

Richtofen broke all his own rules when chasing May.

He was far too low...his guns were jamming...deep inside enemy lines...split from his comrades.

He was asked to retire after his head wound...but continued. The wound was caused by a round fired from 1200 feet away. talk about ya lucky shot. His later photos always show him wearing a skull bandage

 

[Njaco]

Over the years I saw docus on History and PBS with angles, timelines, etc. and I have a few books on the Baron. I'd say it was Aussie from ground fire.

 

[HoHun]

Hi Welch,

Thanks for the transcript! Popkin, or a rifleman near Popkin's position - at least, that's my conclusion from the information presented above.

>SUZANNE FISCHER: "I think the Red Baron's real achievement was his legacy of squadron tactics. And it wasn't just that he developed them, but he actually wrote them down so that people could use them and still do use them today."

Has anyone ever seen tactical guidelines written by von Richthofen? I wonder if this might be a misinterpretation of the guidelines put down by Richthofen's teacher Boelcke ...

By the way, Richthofen's "Everything else is rubbish" actually reads "Everything else is nonsense" ('Unsinn') in the original and directly addresses tactically worthless orders to fly at a certain time at a specified altitude and over a certain position in order to interdict enemy air activity.

(The quote is from "Der Rote Kampfflieger" ... being a war-time book obviously written by an anonymous hack writer, it's a bit short on tactical detail, but I thought the sober and somewhat pessimistic post-script von Richthofen added after receiving his head-wound is quite fascinating ... marked contrast to the main part of the book!)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[joy17782]

yep it was the aussies, and richtoven did break his own rules read the book from his brother he was,nt the same man he was , he was hurt , but i do think the aussies got him. history channels investagation they prove the aussie got him

 

[pbfoot]

Good lord guys they can't figure out who shot JFK with sound video etc and were going to solve an 80 yr old mystery in the confusion of war with 1000's of rounds flinging themselves about from sundrie angles at at targets that bounce with the slightest puff of wind

 

[Graeme]

A little sideline...

In 1973 the Australian War Memorial (AWM) proudly announced that it now had possession of the original identification plate from Richthofen's downed Dr I. An article was published in Air Enthusiast by Gp Capt Keith Issacs explaining the find (donated by ex-Gunner G Ridgway-at the time one of the last surviving witnesses of the crash) and how a previous plate in their possession was now proven to be a fake...



Soon after the magazine was published its editors were inundated with letters from experts around the world pointing out that the AWM was now in possession of TWO fakes. They explained their reasoning based on the size of the plate, lettering, spelling, etc. One wag suggested that there were so many fake plates circulating around the world that he theorised that Richthofen's plane wasn't shot down, it simply "fell out of the sky loaded with genuine brass military identification plates".

In the end the editors suggested that all further correspondence be directed to the AWM. I don't know if it was ever resolved or if the 'real' plate ever surfaced.

 

[pbfoot]

The seat is a museum in Toronto

 

[Arsenal VG-33]

Isn't Richthofen buried in Berlin? I think you can find it on the findagrave website. Lucky his body wasn't blown to smithereens in No-Man's-Land, which is probably what happened to French ace Guynemer, who has no known grave.

 

[Njaco]

I think its the same graveyard as Werner Moelders.

 

[wilbur1]

Does it really matter? the guy was the best aircraft fighter of his time. he was shot down because he knew it was his time. he was the best at what he did, kill enemy aircraft. as far as im concerned he did his job

 

[HoHun]

Hi Graeme,

>I don't know if it was ever resolved or if the 'real' plate ever surfaced.

I'm surprised by the inscription "MILITAAR FLUGZEUG FOKKER" ... "militaar" is not German, but "Flugzeug" is - now it must have been just like that on the original plate or it wouldn't have been considered genuine in 1973, but I'm still surprised.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[Graeme]

I'm surprised by the inscription "MILITAAR FLUGZEUG FOKKER" ... "militaar" is not German, but "Flugzeug" is - now it must have been just like that on the original plate or it wouldn't have been considered genuine in 1973, but I'm still surprised.

Hi HoHun.

Interesting!

One letter, by a British engineer, believed that the words were misspelled? According to him the correct spelling is "MILITAR (two dots above the A) AND FLUGZEUG" (no dots above the U's);

"..it seems that someone was a trifle over-enthusiastic with the umlaut.."


Another letter from a Fokker historian at the Nat Av Museum in Schipol, believes that the correct text appearance should read, "MILITAER (or MILITAR)_FLUGZEUG FOKKER DR I 425/17"

He goes on (and on);

"The use of the "Umlaut" (the two dots above an a, o or u) could only have been applied on the single A of MILITAR, although it would be preferably written MILITAAR with a double A. The application of the "Umulat" on both U's in FLUGZEUG is unthinkable, by a German as the words should read FLUGZEUG (Flugzeug). A military aircraft reads "Militar-Flugzeug" in German, with a hyphen."


(Had great difficulty typing this HoHun! Can scan and post if it makes no sense)

 

[HoHun]

Hi Graeme,

>"..it seems that someone was a trifle over-enthusiastic with the umlaut.."

Absolutely! I actually disregarded the dots because they are plain silly ... thought it must be some paint chipped off from the plate. Note that there is only one dot above each A, which is more nonsense.

>Another letter from a Fokker historian at the Nat Av Museum in Schipol, believes that the correct text appearance should read, "MILITAER (or MILITAR)_FLUGZEUG FOKKER DR I 425/17"

That's what I'd have thought, too. "MILITÄR" and "MILITAER" are equivalent, Umlauts are transcribed with an "e" following the original vowel when the type set does not contain Umlauts (for example on teletype).

The "ß" which only exists in lower type is a ligature resulting from two different "s" types merged into a single one, and transscribed as "ss" or (strictly on teletype) as "sz".

Hm, maybe a list might be better than a long explanation:

Lower case:

ä -> ae
ö -> oe
ü -> ue
ß -> ss (normally), sz (in teletype)

Upper case:

Ä -> AE (if the text is in capitals), Ae (in mixed text)
Ö -> OE (if the text is in capitals), Oe (in mixed text)
Ü -> UE (if the text is in capitals), Ue (in mixed text)
ß -> does not exist in upper case, is transscribed as "SS" if the text is all capitals

(No word ever starts with an "ß" ligature

Since the Umlauts are phonetically quite different from the "plain" vowels, you can confuse German native speakers quite easily by simply eliminating the "dots" with no transliteration For example, "löten" means "to solder", "loten" means "to sound/to fathom" - and you'd pronounce both differently.

>"The use of the "Umlaut" (the two dots above an a, o or u) could only have been applied on the single A of MILITAR, although it would be preferably written MILITAAR with a double A.

I'm not sure about the double A ... I never Umlauts transcribed like that before. Not to say it could not have been used like that in a special niche, or that typesetting customs might have been slightly different 90 years back, but I'm still a bit sceptical ...

In fact, when I saw "MILITAAR", I had spontaneously thought it might be Dutch ... however, now I believe it would have to be "MILITAIRE" in that case, and "VLIEGTUIG" instead of "FLUGZEUG".

(Note the very similar etymology - interesting since there was considerable debate in Germany on which term to choose for the "aeroplane". "Flieger" and "Flieg" where also considered. The latter etymological option seems to have been chosen by the Danes who decided for the equivalent "Fly".)

>The application of the "Umulat" on both U's in FLUGZEUG is unthinkable

Definitely! It's about as credible as "Mötörhead"

>(Had great difficulty typing this HoHun! Can scan and post if it makes no sense)

You did a great job, I think I perfectly understood every detail of your post! I hope my answers don't prove me wrong

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[pbfoot]

this is an interesting read on the last flight it was written by an ex CAf F18 pilot now historian and was published in the canadian defence Review
Who Killed Von Richthofen?

 

[Freebird]

Can I vote for the beagle?

 

[wilbur1]

Hey! I think i have that book still

 

[Njaco]

unfortunately, me too.

Just to toss in a monkey wrench. Fokker was Dutch and quite possibly used Dutch instead of German. What I'm saying is that what some might assume to be German might actually should be Dutch. So instead of trying to decipher in German maybe its the other country that should be looked at.

That said, I have no clue the difference between Dutch and German. The points about umlat I'm aware of in German. Does the same hold true for Dutch?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Here is the true story about how the Red Baron was shot down!

Believe it and Learn it!!!!!




View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ksf3RKFIpvk

 

[Njaco]

"10, 20, 30, 40, 50 or more..the Bloody Red Baron was rollin' up the score...
80 men died trying to end the spree
of the Bloody Red baron of Germany!"

Love IT!!!!