Who Really Destroyed the Luftwaffe?

[Nikademus]

Gentlemen,

I've begun reading a book that claims the USAAF defeated the Luftwaffe, a task that no other Allied AF was capable of. The author argues that the RAF was only able to achieve temporary, local air superiority beyond England, and that the Red Air Force was even less effective at superiority. Only the USAAF had the ability to destroy the GAF. Any thoughts?

Sounds like a must-miss book.

 

[tail end charlie]

When I saw: "Mustangs over Berlin ..... ". Not to misrepresent the importance of Mosquitos or Lancasters over Berlin, but Mustangs over Berlin symbolized the final tightening of the air superiority screws. And they were USAAF Mustangs.

MM

Again MM that is a famous quote about Goering he produced many famous quotes.

firstly you should not call him Goering but Mayer because thats what he said his name would be if ever Berlin was bombed


secondly his quote about the mosquito was same as the mustang in principle (the english are geniuses the Germans are nincompoops etc) Goering as head of the Luftwaffe did nothing to advance the luftwaffe he just lambasted his servicemen when they couldnt deliver what he had promised. H even accusing the LW of cowardice when they suffered massive losses in unescorted daylight bombing. Now any one who says he was a brilliant leader should consider why the USAAF stopped unescorted daylight raids I dont remember reading anything about cowardice or incometence. But then maybe I am not so well "researched".

Berlin was bombed by four (merlin) engined lancasters it was bombed by twin (merlin) engined mosquitos, it didnt take a leap of genious to think that a single (merlin) engined plane would appear over Berlin but hey thats what happened and the people who didnt forsee the obvious are held up as great military leaders so that the people that beat them can bask in more glory.

 

[Colin1]

Again MM that is a famous quote about Goering he produced many famous quotes.
Can you give us some of his others?

Goering as head of the Luftwaffe did nothing to advance the luftwaffe he just lambasted his servicemen when they couldnt deliver what he had promised.
Goering oversaw and supervised the modernisation and expansion of the Luftwaffe into the force that entered WWII

He even accusing the LW of cowardice when they suffered massive losses in unescorted daylight bombing. Now any one who says he was a brilliant leader should consider why the USAAF stopped unescorted daylight raids I dont remember reading anything about cowardice or incompetence.
His lack of 'brilliance' is beyond doubt but Goering's main problem was swaggering over-confidence. He constantly gave operational assurances on tasks that were beyond even the competent Luftwaffe's capabilities.

But then maybe I am not so well "researched"

I hope you're not planning to continue like this. Your contributions to threads are often glib, lacking depth, data, insight or thought provocation and sometimes relevance, contributing little or nothing of value to the debate, you were merely asked to present your credentials, which to date you haven't

 

[tail end charlie]

Back to the question I posed to you.. what is your body of carefully read sources which lead you to your conclusions?

What is your body of carefully read sources? well what are yours I took History at GSE and CSE level at sixteen years old My project for the CSE grade was on operation Barberossa and its aftermath, I read history books from my early teens untll now and I have also worked in Russia China Germany France Italy and Japan. Do you challenge everybody who doesnt agree with you to produce a reference list. From my conversations in RUSSIA the russians consider the Americans COWARDS who used the situation to weaken RUSSIA and Europe to emerrge as the valiant victor while Russians died in their thousands.

Since you are a hound for statistics you produce this statistic how many russians died fighting germany between America deciding that they were suffering "unsustainable losses" in daylight bombing of Germany and their resumption of the campaign. When you have the total then compare it to the loses the USA suffered, the USA and the USAAF dont look quite so heroic in those terms.


Consider this, since you prefess to know the facts, in the daylight raiding campaign in 1943 there was no reason for the USAAF to stop bombing because from their certified claims they were already wiping the LW from the sky the losses were high but compared to the claims they were massive victories in any terms. SO WHY DID THEY STOP and since they did stop inspite of the official statistics PROVING they were winning everything else quoted from official unoficial and personal accounts is PURE ...B U L L T I H S

 

[Colin1]

From my conversations in RUSSIA the russians consider the Americans COWARDS who used the situation to weaken RUSSIA and Europe to emerrge as the valiant victor while Russians died in their thousands.
Can I ask you with your GCE in History how informed an opinion you think that is? For example, if I suggested that it was the Stalinist purges that weakened the Soviet Union and the Soviet High Command's insistence on going into suspended animation in the face of repeated warnings over the imminent invasion, is it possible that the Russians you conversed with might be spewing anti-western/capitalist claptrap?

Since you are a hound for statistics you produce this statistic how many russians died fighting germany between America deciding that they were suffering "unsustainable losses" in daylight bombing of Germany and their resumption of the campaign. When you have the total then compare it to the loses the USA suffered, the USA and the USAAF dont look quite so heroic in those terms.
I don't understand the connection between losses and heroism. See above for the Soviet Union's own contribution to their calamitous situation in the second half of 1941. The USAAF would have reconsidered deep penetration daylight bombing whether Germany had brought the Soviet Union into the war or not.

Consider this, since you prefess to know the facts, in the daylight raiding campaign in 1943 there was no reason for the USAAF to stop bombing because from their certified claims they were already wiping the LW from the sky the losses were high but compared to the claims they were massive victories in any terms. SO WHY DID THEY STOP and since they did stop inspite of the official statistics PROVING they were winning everything else quoted from official unoficial and personal accounts is PURE ...B U L L T I H S

An hysterical, incoherent ramble; can you verify ANYTHING you just said there?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Alright guys, keep it civil!

I will not say this again!

 

[tail end charlie]

I hope you're not planning to continue like this. Your contributions to threads are often glib, lacking depth, data, insight or thought provocation and sometimes relevance, contributing little or nothing of value to the debate, you were merely asked to present your credentials, which to date you haven't

Goerings quotes are almost as famaus as Hitlers (read a book or better still speak to a German)

in addition he was known by his subordinates as the plumber because of the metal he carried about (self awarded medals)

The debate as you call it is singularly one sided, the call for me to "produce my credentials" which sounds like an elizabethan challenge to a duel seems to stem from comments about Goering who was a BUFFOON if you can show any evidence that he wasnt a BUFFOON then please do so and I will put your comments below a picture of him with all his medals wearing his pink boots and carrying his battle of britain victory baton.

Quotes from Goering (actually shortened paraphrases because I am working in France and dont keep books from the library)

call me mayer (If ever any one bombs Berlin)

The english are geniuses we are nincomppops (mosquitos over Berlin)

The game is up (Mustangs over Berlin)

I will sweep the RAF from the skies in 2, 4 6 weeks (which quote do you want)

You are cowards (when they didnt sweep the RAF from the skies)

perhaps the best " Dont waste time attacking Radar stations it has no effect"

 

[syscom3]

Sounds like a must-miss book.

Any comments about the AAF roaming the skys of Germany while the Spitfires were only over Holland?

 

[steve51]

Nikademus,

I have since finished the book and agree with you. Many other books, like 'The Road To Big Week' by Hammel, cover the same ground much better.

 

[tail end charlie]

An hysterical, incoherent ramble; can you verify ANYTHING you just said there?

I was talking about losses that is statistics I didnt mention heroism I repeat how many soviets died between America stopping the campaign it agreed with the soviet union and the resumption of daylight raids? The agreement as I understand it was to wage WAR the Americans stopped waging WAR do to politically inconvenient losses. Now before you launch into another round of personal abuse you show how many soviets died between the START of the bombing camapagn by the USAAF and its cessation in 1943 and how many soviets died between the cessassion and the resumption in 1944. Look at a map of the territory held by Germany between those dates.


"Produce your credentials".........Stand and deliver your money or your life or was it "Stan its your Liver, your kidneys are alright"

 

[tail end charlie]

Can I ask you with your GCE in History how informed an opinion you think that is? For example, if I suggested that it was the Stalinist purges that weakened the Soviet Union and the Soviet High Command's insistence on going into suspended animation in the face of repeated warnings over the imminent invasion, is it possible that the Russians you conversed with might be spewing anti-western/capitalist claptrap?

COLIN you are really starting to nark me to put it lighly I gained an O level in History but a CSE was unusually considered to be a higher qualification because you had to submit a project which I did and gained a grade 1 qualification I am sorry I cannot at the age of 50 produce my "credentials" but that is how long I have been reading on these subjects.

The Rusiians I met were in the same business as I am not in any way politically orientated they strangely dont agree that 1000 russians isnt worth one american or british serviceman you may say they are indoctrinated I would say youve got a point.


Since you are a hound for statistics you produce this statistic how many russians died fighting germany between America deciding that they were suffering "unsustainable losses" in daylight bombing of Germany and their resumption of the campaign. When you have the total then compare it to the loses the USA suffered, the USA and the USAAF dont look quite so heroic in those terms.
I don't understand the connection between losses and heroism. See above for the Soviet Union's own contribution to their calamitous situation in the second half of 1941. The USAAF would have reconsidered deep penetration daylight bombing whether Germany had brought the Soviet Union into the war or not.

 

[riacrato]

Goering oversaw and supervised the modernisation and expansion of the Luftwaffe into the force that entered WWII

Very true and often overlooked. Under his leadership the LW developed from basically non-existance into the most powerful airforce in continental Europe and arguably in the whole world. In six years. His later failures overshadow this achievement.

 

[parsifal]

again Bull sh** you guys read too many mythical accounts about lack of pilots. young they were and not necessarily with more than 5 missions under their belt but there were plenty of them. the stupid and useless Sonderkommanado Elbe in april of 45 and Bienstock proves this, many youth pilots ready to give them selves up on the death throes of the Reich

the Soviets drew off the LW day units as I stated earlier back in January of 45 those that could of helped take on the US bombing campaign further had the eastern front escaped never had happened but now I am on a what-if. The Soviets helped out more than you guys know if the LW was still on an even par with the Ost front enemy

You hit the nail on the head, as usual, erich, but the munchkins are just not listening

 

[bobbysocks]

What is your body of carefully read sources? well what are yours I took History at GSE and CSE level at sixteen years old My project for the CSE grade was on operation Barberossa and its aftermath, I read history books from my early teens untll now and I have also worked in Russia China Germany France Italy and Japan. Do you challenge everybody who doesnt agree with you to produce a reference list. From my conversations in RUSSIA the russians consider the Americans COWARDS who used the situation to weaken RUSSIA and Europe to emerrge as the valiant victor while Russians died in their thousands.

i am not trying to be a smart @$$ here but whose fault is that? neither churchill or fdr ordered the russian troops to do that. uncle joe was more than willing to throw his own people into the fray as fodder. that was the communist line of doctrine...which was witnessed from there up into vietnam. from the communist manifesto on down from lenin to mao, to minh...the ends justififed the means. and there was a blatant disregard for the individual and their well being. they had no thoughts of calculated risk...it was damn the torpedos send in another 100,000. just because you do not throw organized suicide assaults at the enemy in the attempt to overwhelm them by sheer numbers is not cowardace.

Since you are a hound for statistics you produce this statistic how many russians died fighting germany between America deciding that they were suffering "unsustainable losses" in daylight bombing of Germany and their resumption of the campaign. When you have the total then compare it to the loses the USA suffered, the USA and the USAAF dont look quite so heroic in those terms.

same answer as above. who but uncle joe would throw his troops into a well defended position with nothing but 5 rounds of ammunition and tell them to find a rifle off of the first dead man in front of you? and the officers told to shoot anyone who turns around. i dont know if i see this as heroic act or even tactically sound! how can you compare anything to this. who was the bigger buffoon the person who ordered something like this or georing? that was a sheer waste of mankind in an duel of pride between to leaders.

by the latter stages of the war hitler was listening to no one and everyone was trying CYA tactics to keep their heads. so i am sure a lot was said..promised...because of that.

i think you are getting too wound up over this and getting close to crossing a line ...you might want to have a beer or something, man.

think i am going to take my own advice after i pull the rip cord.... cheers all.

 

[tail end charlie]

You hit the nail on the head, as usual, erich, but the munchkins are just not listening

Er what nail on what head? This munchkin sees the germans close to their own capital with a huge enemy land and air force force while the western allies are launching bombers from far away. As a munchkin to a smurf which to you is the most threatening, bearing in mind the Soviets were avenging the attrocities commited in the east.

The smurfs dont seem to want to answer simple munchkin questions. Like exactly how many men planes tanks and guns did the Russians and Germans lose when between the date the americans stopped daylight bombing raids under the combined bomber offensive (Agreed by the US President) and its resumption. However more importantly how much territory did the Soviets re calim and how much oil production did they deny Germany.

show me you credentials

 

[tail end charlie]

i am not trying to be a smart @$$ here but whose fault is that? neither churchill or fdr ordered the russian troops to do that. uncle joe was more than willing to throw his own people into the fray as fodder. that was the communist line of doctrine...which was witnessed from there up into vietnam. from the communist manifesto on down from lenin to mao, to minh...the ends justififed the means. and there was a blatant disregard for the individual and their well being. they had no thoughts of calculated risk...it was damn the torpedos send in another 100,000. just because you do not throw organized suicide assaults at the enemy in the attempt to overwhelm them by sheer numbers is not cowardace.

Since you are a hound for statistics you produce this statistic how many russians died fighting germany between America deciding that they were suffering "unsustainable losses" in daylight bombing of Germany and their resumption of the campaign. When you have the total then compare it to the loses the USA suffered, the USA and the USAAF dont look quite so heroic in those terms.[/QUOTE]

same answer as above. who but uncle joe would throw his troops into a well defended position with nothing but 5 rounds of ammunition and tell them to find a rifle off of the first dead man in front of you? and the officers told to shoot anyone who turns around. i dont know if i see this as heroic act or even tactically sound! how can you compare anything to this. who was the bigger buffoon the person who ordered something like this or georing? that was a sheer waste of mankind in an duel of pride between to leaders.

by the latter stages of the war hitler was listening to no one and everyone was trying CYA tactics to keep their heads. so i am sure a lot was said..promised...because of that.

i think you are getting too wound up over this and getting close to crossing a line ...you might want to have a beer or something, man.[/QUOTE]


All true Bobby but when you stop fighting because you are taking losses less than your allies are but you cant accept them because of what the folks back home will say, well people make judegements.........sorry if any thing I say makes you feel I need a beer, personaly people taking credit for others sacrifice makes me more than a little queasy.

Stalin didnt declare war but eventually by the most brutal means achieved victory for his side. Goering lost despite starting the conflict he was the leader of the LW not a corporal handing out ammunition.The LW was armed and developed by technical military people but when the politicians got hold of it the leaders/pilots took the blame for failures and goering took the credit for success.

 

[Erich]

well am not sure Steve was planning for his thread to go OT but it has as per usual sadly

time to close it for good

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Very true Erich. I think its time for the little boys and girls to re-group here. Last warning.

Charlie - put a lid on it, you're really pissing me off.

 

[bobbysocks]

deleted by me....was all off topic. respect and regards to all

bobby

 

[parsifal]

Er what nail on what head? This munchkin sees the germans close to their own capital with a huge enemy land and air force force while the western allies are launching bombers from far away. As a munchkin to a smurf which to you is the most threatening, bearing in mind the Soviets were avenging the attrocities commited in the east.

The smurfs dont seem to want to answer simple munchkin questions. Like exactly how many men planes tanks and guns did the Russians and Germans lose when between the date the americans stopped daylight bombing raids under the combined bomber offensive (Agreed by the US President) and its resumption. However more importantly how much territory did the Soviets re calim and how much oil production did they deny Germany.

show me you credentials

calm down...... your post is not all that relevant to the point i was making....my point is this....the soviets had significant effect in the defeat of the lw. so too did the allies, including the raf.

but this basic truth is simply not regestering at the moment with some participants.

erichs other points....that ther were plenty of planes and pilots is true as well, and i note erich acknoeledges the inexperience of those pilots, and the lack of fuel for the lw as major factors in the final defeat. he also acknowledges that in '45 many units were needed in the east, and hence could not properly meet the us daylight bomber threats

my crentials are that i have two degrees in this area, i lectured in strategic studies at the military academy, and have published a number of simulations on this subject. Wargames if you like. I have relatives that fought for both sides and am uniquely positioned to make observations on the war.