Who shot down the Red Baron?

[B-17engineer]

I am going other. I believe a Lewis gun or some other machine gun shot him down. There were about 5-6 Lewis guns when "The Red Baron" was chasing a British plane. The show I watch stated 3 Lewis guns had a clear shot and they all took it. Hitting Richtoven in the side. I forgot the Names of all three gunners...I'll look it up

 

[KrazyKraut]

4. The round that kills MVR is through the heart. From what I've read, he would've been alive for no more than 30 seconds from the shot hitting him. Yet witnesses say they made it to the cockpit of his aircraft, pulled him out and he said something in German and died.

Do you refer to the wikipedia article where it is said he mumbled "kaputt" and died? Because that seems made up to me: Kaputt is such a stereotypical and non-fitting word it just seems too much like something someone thought up to tell a story.

I just read on the page FLYBOYJ posted that Brown's first official report said "indicisive", which was later changed when they found out MvR died. Makes you wonder...

 

[timshatz]

One other thing comes to mind about the ground fire. Were these guys particularly good at aircraft recognition? Seems to me that most of these guys just shot at anything that flew. They might just as well been shooting at the Camels as the Fokker.

Agree with you KK, this thing is all over the place.

If I had to guess, I would say there were a good dozen guns going in all directions on the ground. Who hit what or even knew what they were shooting at?

 

[CharlesBronson]

Who hit what or even knew what they were shooting at?

Actually it wasnt so difficult to recognize the Richthofen s plane, all red even the center wheels, at 15 m from the ground and 130 or 140 km.....

 

[merlin]

I saw the programme about it on TV last night. Compelling viewing, well presented, and more importantly - compelling evidence - from those who were there.
It was interesting that Brown did not give evidence at the enquiry, taking the view that having been credited with the enemy aircraft that was as 'official' as it needed to be. But to participate, would have opened up his recollections to analysis (such as it was then), which may have compremised his 'score' - he couldn't take the risk.
Interesting too, correspondence that came to light about eye-witnesnesses who got to Richtofen after he landed. Therefore, knowing he was alive when he landed with the injuries he received, they could tell the combat with Brown (this was seen) was too early for time-of-death. Hence, it would be ground fire (it would have been easier if different ammunition was used - but it wasn't), and Popkin's second burst fitted being in the right place (angle of bullet entry) and right time ( of death).
So it is Popkin.

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

I dunno, I still wonder if Brown deserves some credit. he might have put a couple of good holes in the Barons plane.

 

[P-Popsie]

the red baron was shotdown by a british riflemen that got lokey and never got the kill it eas a one in a million shot

Australian old chap all three canidates for firing the fatal ground shot are from OZ.

While were on the subject it would seem most likely that the shot came from ground fire even if you take the numerical probability factor of Several Lewis and Vickers Machine guns firing from a stationary position versus two Lewis Machine guns firing from a radically weaving platform.

From conversations i have had in recent years and from the few doco's available on the subject i beleive as most of my countrymen do that the baron was dropped by an Australian gunner most likely popkin. Good idea for a thread though.

 

[ubernuton]

i did

 

[FLYBOYJ]

i did

Geez, you did, now watch this....

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

Good job FlyboyJ! Thanks for cleaning up the thread.

 

[Dernancourt]

Regarding the Vickers machine gun firing distance mentioned in #23 post, Sgt Cedric Popkin's own comments when interviewed by the authors such as Dale Titler and P.J. Carisella, in the 1960's, was that he fired about 80 rounds on the first pass of MvR and another 80 odd rounds at the triplane on the second burst, which was closer to 300 yards away. As you may know, the Vickers machine gun was superior over other makes, firing a very large number of bullets per minute. My grandfather was with Popkin on that day, and they both were convinced that it was Popkin's bullet that killed MvR. Only one bullet penetrated his body.

 

[tyrodtom]

The WW1 Vickers had the same rate of fire as most of the other WW1 machine guns.
The Vickers, the German MG-08, and US MG 17 all had the same rate of fire 450-500 RPM. Except the US MG 17A1 was rated at up to 600 RPM.
They're after all, the same gun, copies of the Maxim just produced in different countries firing different ammo, with a few small differences.
The German MG14 had the highest ROF of the common WW1 machine guns, 600-700 RPM.

 

[Dernancourt]

The Red Baron was ill too. He was having terrible headaches from an earlier wound to the head.

Some people have wondered if it even affected his judgement on that fateful day, because the way he chased Roy Brown's (nephew?) was rather uncharacteristic of him, allowing himself to be drawn close to the ground, and prolonging a fight by chasing down an enemy fighter. For one, he even had Roy on his tail.

The Baron's motto was a quick kill, fly in quickly, possibly from above, and get out fast.

Erich Hartmann followed that rule a lot too.