Who shot down the Red Baron? (1 Viewer)

Who shot down Manfred Von Richthofen?

  • Captain Arthur "Roy" Brown

    Votes: 23 36.5%
  • Sergeant Cedric Popkin

    Votes: 29 46.0%
  • Other (Specify)

    Votes: 11 17.5%

  • Total voters
    63

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The angle of entry and exit of the 7,7 mm bullet in Von Richthofen body clearly indicated that the fatal shot could never being delivered by Brown or any airborne gun.
 
I kinda wax and wane back and forth on this one. I originially thought it was Brown when I was younger. Then heard the evidence that a ground gunner did it. However, the more I looked at it, the more I believed the later evidence was somewhat skewed. All of it came to light long after the war from various sources, many first hand but some second. The ground shot arguement is benefited by most of the believers not being there at the time.

The arguement on the angle of the bullet strike seems to say it was ground fire. But a pilot turning around to look back (in a slight bank to the left- which my understanding of a triplane and it's quirky flying chracteristics is very common) would give you the same bullet wound as somebody shooting from the ground at an upward angle. And Brown attacked from the back right quadrent (at least he did from what I've read). The angle of the wound used to be considered final testimate for the ground shot, now I am less sure.

Futher, the time of flight after the hit and Brown's distance away when it happened are both up to conjecture. Some things in the whole story I do not know the answer to:

1. Brown made a slashing attack from the right to the left, firing at the triplane and then....what? Did he fly away leaving the Triplane on May's tail? According to the ground fire arguement, he flew away and they shot the Barron down a minute or so later. Why would Brown do that? It makes no sense. Only if he fired, the Triplane broke away from May and then settle to the ground, does it work. Then, there is no reason for Brown to fire again as the Triplane was going down.

2. The math of hitting a target moving 100mph at 600 yds with a single Vickers gun is lousy when compared to hitting the same target from behind right with two guns at less than 100 yds.


In this case, I think Occam's Razor applies. The simplest answer is probably the right one.
 
It would be interesting to know how many bullets struck his plane and where the impacts were. Both theories have their points, so far the AAA theory seems most simple and plausible to me.
 
The show on PBS made a compelling argument for Popkin but I don't know how they can be so sure as those aircraft were very flighty and I'm sure he wasn't flying straight and level . Brown as far as I know did not claim him but was given the kill by the powers to be
 
Actually Brown did put in a claim. In any fair assessment of air to air claims, Brown gets credit. He dove to the attack, he fired a long burst, he observed strikes on the ea , including the pilot slumping over in his seat. He disengaged when they got too close to the ground, pulled up and and observed the ea crashing.

Yep - Because that very week the RFC became the RAF - they needed the press!!!!

False, Brown was never used as a propaganda tool. He wasn't even withdrawn from combat until he crashed his own plane two weeks after the downing of Richthofen. After recuperating in England he was to suffer a further crash that effectively terminated his combat career.

Throughout his life Brown was a class act never bragging or even talking about the death of Richthofen. Oddly enough, people would later use this against Brown to push forward the idea that the claim was somehow hollow. In reality, in his personal diary Brown was absolutely convinced that he had killed the Red Baron. Physically Brown wasn't in any better condition than Richthofen at the time , and he felt a lot of empathy for his deceased opponant. Unlike a lot of fighter pilots Brown wasn't a glory seeker. He did his job as best he could and tried to always protect the inexperianced pilots of his unit. This was in fact exactly what he was doing when he shot down Richthofen, flying to the aid of rookie Canadian pilot Wilfred May who came very close to being number 81.

No one can be absolutely sure who fired the fatal bullet. There is a bullet hole through the backside of the Red Barons seat, its in a museum here in Canada. Brown was in the best position by far to make that shot. All the theories about bullet trajectories entry/exit wounds are just that , theories. Wilfred May was performing violent un co-ordinated manoeuvres to try to throw off the Barons attack. Eye witness testimony is contradictory as to how long the Red Baron was in the air after Brown fired. No internal autopsy was performed, it cannot be said for certain that his heart was pierced. His ability to keep his plane in the air and how long it was in the air remain in question.

Brown got the credit but it may have been fate, more than anything, that caught up with him that day.

Slaterat
 
the red baron was shotdown by a british riflemen that got lokey and never got the kill it eas a one in a million shot
 
False, Brown was never used as a propaganda tool. He wasn't even withdrawn from combat until he crashed his own plane two weeks after the downing of Richthofen. After recuperating in England he was to suffer a further crash that effectively terminated his combat career.
One of the first books written on this subject in 1968 by P.J. Carisella and James W. Ryan mentions the argument with the newly established RAF and the Australian ground unit who also claimed to have shot down Richthofen. Brown did claim the triplane and it was eventually awarded to him. he was not used as a propaganda tool but the RAF did get press in the weeks after the red baron was killed.

"On the morning of the 22nd of April, No.3 Sqn Australian Flying Corps withdrew their claim as it was determined the combat between the squadron's RE8s and Richthofen's Flying Circus was too early to be the decisive combat. At about the same time the recording officer in No.209 Sqn Royal Air Force retyped Browns Combat In The Air Report. Brown and his squadron commander both signed it. Major Butler added to the report, "One Decisive".

In the afternoon of the 22nd Rittmeister Manfred von Richthofen was buried with full military honours by No.3 Squadron Australian Flying Corps. On the 23rd a Royal Air Force aircraft dropped photographs of the grave over the German lines so that the Luftstreitkrafte would know of the Red Barons grave and that he had been buried with the respect due their greatest Ace.

Royal Air Force Headquarters decided to go ahead with full support for Browns claim even though they were aware of the first two medical examinations which suggested ground fire was the cause of Richthofen's demise. The justification was partly decided on the basis of morale as the Royal Air Force had suffered considerably in the previous months. It is believed that Royal Air Force HQ told the NO.209 Squadron pilots not to mention the matter to anyone. Until their deaths, the No.209 Squadron pilots recounting of the events followed the Royal Air Forces version."


Who Killed The Red Baron? || kuro5hin.org

An interesting site...


ANZACS-RED-BARON
 
I had read somewhere the Brown was taken out of combat as a result of ulcers. Anyone else read that? Slat notes he crashed a couple of weeks after MVR was shot down and I've read he didn't last in combat but a few weeks after the fight with MVR.

Anybody got any more info on that? Did he crash AND have ulcers?
 
The Red Baron was ill too. He was having terrible headaches from an earlier wound to the head.

Some people have wondered if it even affected his judgement on that fateful day, because the way he chased Roy Brown's (nephew?) was rather uncharacteristic of him, allowing himself to be drawn close to the ground, and prolonging a fight by chasing down an enemy fighter. For one, he even had Roy on his tail.

The Baron's motto was a quick kill, fly in quickly, possibly from above, and get out fast.

Erich Hartmann followed that rule a lot too.
 
Wop May was not Brown's nephew, but they did know each other. May chased Wolfram von Richthofen (Manfred's cousin) who was also a green pilot - when the baron saw this he began chase and the rest is history.
 
Now this thing is starting to bug me! Spent about an hour last night kicking it around in my head. Here are the odd points I came up with.

1. Bullet hole in the seat. First time I've heard of it. If so, it could prove direction of fire. Anybody know if there is a picture of it online.

2. If Brown did not kill MVR, why did he fly away (point already brought up)? He said in his combat report that he fired and saw the pilot slump in the cockpit....is this report available online?

3. MVR is attacked from behind and doesn't react to it? Guy was the Pro of WW1 air fighting and he allows somebody to shoot up his airplane (again, Brown's report- wish we could see it) and flies on like nothing happened? Seems very odd.

4. The round that kills MVR is through the heart. From what I've read, he would've been alive for no more than 30 seconds from the shot hitting him. Yet witnesses say they made it to the cockpit of his aircraft, pulled him out and he said something in German and died. If that were the case, he would've had to have crash landed within 100 yards of the witnesses at the max for them to get there in time and even that is stretching it.

Like I said, all odd stuff I'm just trying to figure out this, that and the other thing. Trying to get some kind of lineal progression to the thing and right now don't.

If you look at the stories told by the witnesses on the ground and in the air, two different aircraft were shot down.

In the air, it is a quick, slashing attack on a Triplane on the tail of a Camel, shorly thereafter the plane banks and crash lands. If you take it from the ground (getting this one from Unsolved History), MVR has banked away from the Camel and is flying back towards his lines (with Brown nowhere to be seen) when he turns, dives and crash lands.
 
It is very confusing, especially the more you read and think about it. So many different versions of what happened. It demonstrates that eye witness testimony just isn't very accurrate.

Here's a couple more links. One is a website devoted to Wop May that has a picture of the seat; and to my surprise the bullet hole(s) are a myth. They are actually damaged mounting holes. I'm gonna have to have a rum and coke to get over this one.

[link]http//:WopArticleLayout[/link]

The second link is a website on Canadian fighter pilots with some good info on Roy Brown including a brief combat report, and picture of the damaged tri-plane

[link]http//:Arthur Roy Brown[/link]

There used to be another site that had some pages from Browns diary but it appears to be defunct. There's also a new biography about Brown that was released last November but its sold out. I'll get one asap.

Slaterat , getting my drink now....
 
Tim, if you get a chance, check out that show that koolkitty posted. I saw it on PBS and it was pretty informative with photos of his wounds and such. Even went to the exact area with I believe a laser and showed how it possibly was done.
 
Tim, if you get a chance, check out that show that koolkitty posted. I saw it on PBS and it was pretty informative with photos of his wounds and such. Even went to the exact area with I believe a laser and showed how it possibly was done.

Njaco, saw the show. Actually, it was one of two shows that I've seen. One was a NOVA on PBS and the other was Unsolved History. Both were pretty good, if you believed he was shot down from the ground. Saw the one with the laser, think that was Unsolved History.

My concern about both shows was the need (seemingly common these days) to go against the established line. It tends to negate evidence that doesn't support the premise of the show.

Still, doesn't mean either show was wrong, just seemed slanted.
 
[link]http//:Arthur Roy Brown[/link]
....

Ok, now to make things even more confusing, this is what I read from one of Slat's links:

"Signed report of 3 Sqn., A.F.C. Eqpt. Officer, is present (N.J. Warenford). He arrived at site at 2 p.m. when machine was being shelled by H.E., body still in wreckage rope was fastened around body"

According to this report, MVR was still in the aircraft after several hours and the story of the guy pulling him out and hearing him say something in German is...questionable?

Man, seems like everyone has a hand in this story.

Mix me a drink too Slat, there are just too many people associated with this one anymore to get an accurate line on it.
 

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