Who was the most decorated WW-II military man ?

[buffnut453]

Bravery comes in many forms. Frankly, I have a hard time trying to decide whether one individual should, or should not, have been awarded a particular medal...and sometimes we have to factor in the political issues or try to view the event from a contemporaneous perspective (which is always hard). For many soldiers, sailors and airmen, simply waking up every day (or night) and doing their job was tough enough - keeping going when your mates are disappearing takes its own kind of courage. I am full of admiration for those who receive gallantry awards. None of us knows how we would have responded in the same situation. And we are still producing sons and daughters capable of truly heroic displays of physical bravery, as evidenced by Johnson Beharry VC Johnson Beharry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

 

[R Pope]

Records were found a few years after Audie Murphy's death that showed another US soldier actually had more medals awarded. The gov't contacted the gentleman and he wouldn't allow them to make a big deal of it, apparently. I have his name somewhere in my stack of books but can't find the right one.

 

[meatloaf109]

Meatloaf,

I'm not trying to restrict Charles' right of expression. However, if he's going to make statements like that perhaps he should back it up with evidence? He's been remarkably quiet since that post. I'm more than happy to get into a discussion--without it getting nasty--but let's understand why Charles thinks the VC is such a trivial award that it's given away for nothing. He can express his opinion but let's see the supporting justification and rationale. Is that unreasonable?

No, not unreasonable at all.
I cannot speak for him but I think that the choice of words was unfortunate. I know him to be a decent and honorable man. I would ask that all of us remember that sometimes we say or do things that, upon reflection, we would not do again. Perhaps this is one of those times.

 

[Rustybugs]

I was going to stay out of this discussion because I am a new guy and a lot of folks that have been here a long time are friends with each other, not only on the board but in real life. Personally, I was afraid of being ostracized from what I thought was a great forum.

I am taking a firm stand with my British friends on this subject. The comments posted by Charles were way out of line. To make a broad statement and trivialize the sacrifices of another countries military members is bigoted. What's next, don't like their religion, the way they look, their politics? I have had the honor and privilege of serving with many different countries military members. Not only British, but South Koreans, Filipinos, Australians, Japanese, Germans, Saudi Arabian, Turkish. to name a few. The thought of making a statement trivializing the sacrifice and more often death of a service member and his award, is sickening.

I am not a military historian. A few of you are. Debating a specific action while being respectful is a good idea. The statements made here by some of the members are not. Everyone has the right to an opinion. Those of us that have served, were willing to fight for that right and some have died doing just that.
We all have the ability to look back and read about more details or specific actions taken by not only countries but by specific people. Hindsight is 20/20. I don't know if every award presented was justified for whatever the reason. Want to debate it? Fine, contact the member if he is still alive, contact surviving members of his squad, unit, service. Read up on all the facts as written. Then have a respectful debate. That's the way it's supposed to happen. In this case it wasn't.

 

[Lucky13]

No, not unreasonable at all.
I cannot speak for him but I think that the choice of words was unfortunate. I know him to be a decent and honorable man. I would ask that all of us remember that sometimes we say or do things that, upon reflection, we would not do again. Perhaps this is one of those times.

Definitely agree on that! We've all done it, sometimes regret it more than other times, a misplaced word, missed . or , or whatever, easily done and hopefully it shouldn't distract us from being, if far apart, good friends, with a common interest, having a interesting and educational discussion...which it's all about anyway, right?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Alright Enough!

Everyone chill out. Why don't you wait to see what he actually meant. It may very well have been taken out of context, as a lot of things on the internet are, until they are explained.

Everyone is jumping to conclusions and attacking him, without even a response from him. That is just as bad, as what you all are accusing him of!

Charles is a good and honorable man. Give him a chance to respond, before you crucify him!

 

[Marcel]

Agreed Chris. I also know Charles to be a thoughtful, polite and honourable man and I'm sure he was not trying to insult the british.

On topic:
The most decorated Dutchman in WW2 was probably Bram (Bob) van de Stock. He was a Dutch pilot flying with the 1st JaVA from Den Helder and thus participated in the big dogfight between this unit and a German squadron in 1940. He later fled to the UK where he became a Spitfire pilot. He was in Stalag luft 3 and was one of the 3 man that did made it to freedom during the famous Great Escape ( unfortunately the movie makers decided to downplay his roll and changed his caracter into an Australian officer).
He got the following decorations:
Dutch:
- Officier in de Orde van Oranje-Nassau
- De Bronzen Leeuw
- Het Bronzen Kruis
- Het Kruis van Verdienste
- Het Vliegerkruis met het getal "2" op het lint voor een tweede toekenning
- Het Oorlogsherinneringskruis
- Het Verzetsherdenkingskruis

Belgian:
- Officier in de Orde van Leopold II met palmen
- Het Belgisch oorlogskruis met Palmen

UK:
- Honorary Officer of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire
- 3 British Campaign Stars.

France:
- Croix the Guerre

Poland:
Cross of Valor (Krzyż Walecznych)

 

[Lucky13]

Think that we all can agree on that Chris, hands down, no questions asked, being one who I'm honored and proud to call a friend!
If we didn't really looked at it as a slight missunderstanding, out of context, unfortunate choice of words etc., I'm sure that it would have gone way out of hand and one of you Mods, would have locked this thread long ago!

 

[meatloaf109]

I have often wondered why the producers of that film chose to change the nationalities like they did. I understand that they had to invent the "Captain Hills" character to accomidate Steve McQueen, but couldn't have James Coburn done an equally bad Dutch accent?

 

[buffnut453]

No, not unreasonable at all.
I cannot speak for him but I think that the choice of words was unfortunate. I know him to be a decent and honorable man. I would ask that all of us remember that sometimes we say or do things that, upon reflection, we would not do again. Perhaps this is one of those times.

I entirely agree. To be honest, I was shocked to see a comment like that from Charles. He's normally the epitome of courtesy and politeness. That's why, in my original response to him, I asked if he was being ironic or had mis-typed his post. I really hope he'll be back online soon so we can talk (or at least type!) all this through.

We're all capable of making mistakes, saying things we didn't mean or, in the rush to submit a post, mangling the words such that they can be misinterpreted. As for me, many here know that I only open my mouth to change my socks!

 

[buffnut453]

couldn't have James Coburn done an equally bad Dutch accent?

Coburn's Aussie still beats Van Dyke's Cockney any day of the week (and twice on Sundays!).

 

[meatloaf109]

Yep, me too, except I don't wear socks.
And from what I've heard, Jan never changes his.

 

[Marcel]

I have often wondered why the producers of that film chose to change the nationalities like they did. I understand that they had to invent the "Captain Hills" character to accomidate Steve McQueen, but couldn't have James Coburn done an equally bad Dutch accent?

I think it was a comercial thingy. The same reason why Captain Hills was added. There simply are more Americans then Dutch to identify with one of the caracters. In reality no Americans participated in the escape although some did help to digg the tunnel.

 

[Lucky13]

Yep, me too, except I don't wear socks.
And from what I've heard, Jan never changes his.

I don't have to, they change themselves!

Most decorated Swede of WWII, I think, Captain Allan Mann...

His medals...

 

[ccheese]

OK, lads, let's fall back and regroup.

My remark about the VC being given out like candy, was inappropriate. I did not mean to demean either the British/Aussies/Kiwi's or those who have received the VC. For this I do apologize.

My original thought, when I heard some RNZAF type got a VC for sinking a U-boat, was... how about all the USN Patrol types, or the DD or DE skippers who sank U-boats. How about the British Corvette captains...... They never got their country's highest honor for their deed. I'm sure those "in power" thought they were just doing their job.

One man sinking a U-boat or one man shooting down five enemy planes, to me, does not merit his nation's highest honor. This is a personal opinion... nothing more.

After reading about F/O Trigg, sacrificing himself (and nine of his crew) to sink a U-boat I must say I have some thoughts on this particular action that bother me. Some will say he was a hero, and deserved his VC. But.... what about his crew of nine men ? I wonder if he asked them if they were prepared to give their all for a U-boat. Again.... my opinion.

I'm sure we'll all agree that in some instances, medals were given out for political reasons and some to boost morale.

MacArthur, Nimitz, Halsey and quite a few others of "flag rank" were very instrumental in bringing the war to an end in the Pacific. Yet MacArthur was the only one awarded a MOH. I feel this was political..... and to shut him up.

To those who were offended by my remark, again, I apologize.

Charles

 

[Njaco]

and for my part, I wasn't particularly defending Charles as much as I was offended by the attack that Edgar made on his comment and against the Mods in general. We've just had 2 pages of comment about what Charles said and it was civil. Edgar's post was not.

Edgar was only given a month for the comment and we welcome him back afterwards if that is his choice.

Thats all I'm gonna say.

 

[buffnut453]

Charles,

Like I said earlier, you've always come across as a most patient and honourable man and you've proved it again with your last post. It's all good...we all make mistakes so no worries from me.

I don't disagree with your comments about Trigg's crew. The allocation of gallantry awards sometimes defies logic - for example, VCs were awarded to 2 members of a Fairey Battle crew while the poor gunner got nothing. Apparently the rationale is that the "key decision makers" in the action get the award, whereas those who are simply "along for the ride" don't. Not saying it's fair - as I've said before, there are many acts of bravery that go unrecognised by the award of medals.

In the case of Trigg, we must also consider that he had already been awarded a DFC which equates to the MC and DSC and, in WWII, was the next-highest award for gallantry below the VC. If the action in which he lost his life was demonstrably more gallant than those for which he gained the DFC, then the only real option is to award the VC. The testimony of the U-Boat captain may also have played a significant part in the award.

 

[GrauGeist]

There's also a good chance that there weren't too many crew members left in one piece aboard Trigg's ship after being worked over by the U-Boat's AA, either...

 

[Bernhart]

suppposedly most decorated Canadian,Barker returned to Canada in May 1919 as the most decorated Canadian of the war, with the Victoria Cross, the Distinguished Service Order and Bar, the Military Cross and two Bars, two Italian Silver Medals for Military Valour, and the French Croix de guerre. He was also mentioned in despatches three times. The Canadian Daily Record, a publication of the Overseas Military Forces of Canada, wrote in December 1918 that William Barker of Dauphin, Manitoba was the Canadian holding the record for "most fighting decorations" in the war. No other Canadian soldier, sailor or airman has surpassed this record, and the Canadian War Museum exhibit, located in Ottawa, Ontario, states: "Lieutenant Colonel William G. Barker, one of the legendary aces of the war, remains the most decorated Canadian in military service."
with this guy a close second

The Medals Awarded to Sergeant Tommy Prince

Military Medal, 1939 - 1945 Star, Italy Star, France Germany Star, Defense
Medal, Canadian Volunteer Service Medal with Clasp,

War Medal, Korean Medal, Korea Volunteer Medal 1950 - 1954,
United Nation's Service Medal, U.S. Silver Star

 

[Aozora]

Charles,

Like I said earlier, you've always come across as a most patient and honourable man and you've proved it again with your last post. It's all good...we all make mistakes so no worries from me.

I don't disagree with your comments about Trigg's crew. The allocation of gallantry awards sometimes defies logic - for example, VCs were awarded to 2 members of a Fairey Battle crew while the poor gunner got nothing. Apparently the rationale is that the "key decision makers" in the action get the award, whereas those who are simply "along for the ride" don't. Not saying it's fair - as I've said before, there are many acts of bravery that go unrecognised by the award of medals.

In the case of Trigg, we must also consider that he had already been awarded a DFC which equates to the MC and DSC and, in WWII, was the next-highest award for gallantry below the VC. If the action in which he lost his life was demonstrably more gallant than those for which he gained the DFC, then the only real option is to award the VC. The testimony of the U-Boat captain may also have played a significant part in the award.

Just to get things into perspective on F/O Trigg: Auckland War Memorial Museum - Trigg-Lloyd-Allan-World-War-II,-1939-1945

Part of the reason for awarding Lloyd Trigg the V.C was that he continued to "lead from the front" when could easily have packed his bags and headed back to New Zealand: As a member of the RNZAF, rather than the RAF, once "tour expired" he had the option of going back home - instead he continued to fly:

He had completed his operational sorties and had invariably displayed skill and courage of a very high order.

Some Coastal Command crews went through an entire tour without sighting a single U -Boat; Trigg and his crew caught three, which probably says something about Trigg and his flight crew - dumb luck, maybe, but also enough patience and skill to spot three U-Boats in a very big ocean, and carry out attacks on the same. And no offense taken Charles.