Why American aces had lower scores than anybody else

GrauGeist · Apr 9, 2022

glennasher said:
I wonder if some of that time might have been recovering from wounds received in battle or aircraft mishaps? Not disputing what you said in any way, but maybe after recovering, they were sent to an OTU in order to get their feet wet again?

That's a good question and unfortunately, I am far from being a source of information on the Japanese military's proceedure regarding pilot rotation.
However, I do know that Saburo Sakai spent a year as an instructer after recovering from his wounds he received from an SBD's rear gunner.

Then there was also the case of the Tainan Air Group (which Sakai had been assigned when injured) were rotated home to replace personnel, the ten original pilots of the group were assigned to instructor positions.

So it seems that the Japanese did rotate experienced pilots during the war - at least until their situation became dire.

Macandy · Apr 12, 2022

FLYBOYJ said:
Actually some got less (not defending their actions). Hartmann was among the last to be released because he refused to cooperate and sign any confessions. He was put on trial twice (the second time represented himself) and was convicted both times.

Can you name a few of these "Experten" that you consider insane?

They didn't have that luxury, especially the last 6 months of the war.

They never even gave themselves the luxury at the start of the war.
The Luftwaffe was a WWI Airforce - in monoplanes - it never grasped the need to build a depth of skill, the cult of the 'Jeager' was written into it thanks to the likes of Goering.
The fighter was everything, the cult of the ace and the hunter was their creed - high scores were the thing, not teaching.
The Germans never really got past the WWI principle of 'learn on the job' at the Squadron.

Par example… the Battle of Britain.

The Germans lost hundreds of combat experienced pilots who flew relentlessly until they got shot down, and even more replacement pilots trying to learn on the job.
At the height of the Battle of Britain, the RAF had over 1,200 pilots with 100+ hours combat flying under their belts driving desks and in OCU's passing on lessons.
Rotating out never stopped for an RAF pilot, you hit the hours in your log, pack your bags and off to the rear.

Its a common myth the RAF were throwing 'green' and 'barely trained' pilots into the fight because they were 'desperate'… nope, they were indeed green, but they'd all been to an OCU, and they were fed into the fight because they were next ones up. The 'how many hours have you got on a Spitfire', 'Six Sir' is often quoted as 'proof' the pilots were untrained, but its a misleading question, 'Six Sir' because most of his OCU hours were on a Hurricane - unsurprisingly, the RAFs premier fighter was a bit thin on the ground in OCU's.

From Sept 3 1939, the Luftwaffe was a constantly degrading force.
They were living for the next dogfight, the RAF was building for the 'long war'.

Macandy · Apr 12, 2022

33k in the air said:
According to Williamson Murray's Luftwaffe: Strategy for Defeat 1933–1945, the flying hours in training programs for the RAF, USAAF, and Luftwaffe for stated time periods:

View attachment 664167

You can read the text of Murray's book online at Hyperwar.

Although it could be argued that much Luftwaffe training was actually combat flying.
Unlike an RAF or USAAF pilot under training who had no worries about being attacked, being shot down was a constant fear for Luftwaffe trainees.
Their flying schools were 'fair game' to marauding Thunderbolts and Mustangs - there is even some combat footage out there of the resultant turkey shoots when a flying school got jumped with all its trainers up. The Poles seemed to take a great pleasure in these fighter raids when they traded in their Spitfires for Mustangs.

Snautzer01 · Apr 12, 2022

Macandy said:
Although it could be argued that much Luftwaffe training was actually combat flying.
Unlike an RAF or USAAF pilot under training who had no worries about being attacked, being shot down was a constant fear for Luftwaffe trainees.
Their flying schools were 'fair game' to marauding Thunderbolts and Mustangs - there is even some combat footage out there of the resultant turkey shoots when a flying school got jumped with all its trainers up. The Poles seemed to take a great pleasure in these fighter raids when they traded in their Spitfires for Mustangs.

But remember those airfields had good aaa support. Light and heavy. It was certainly not a turkey shoot but good planning to make it look like one. I believe i have read that attacking an airfield was quite dangerous. More then 1 allied air ace was shot down attacking those.

Macandy · Apr 12, 2022

Snautzer01 said:
But remember those airfields had good aaa support. Light and heavy. It was certainly not a turkey shoot but good planning to make it look like one. I believe i have read that attacking an airfield was quite dangerous. More then 1 allied air ace was shot down attacking those.

Yes, the Fighter airfields were well defended, but their civil and training airfields weren't.
And once the Mustangs came to town, no where west of Berlin was safe, even for civil fields with a handful of Steiglitz trainers.

Its a harsh fact, most of Germanys 'experten' were schooled in the training ground of the Spanish Civil War and the cake walk against utterly obsolescent types across most of Europe in 1939-40. - Once they met a professional Air Force with modern aircraft at the English Channel, it was tears before bedtime.

Only 8 of Germanys aces with more than 100 kills joined a Squadron after mid 1942.

Snautzer01 · Apr 12, 2022

Macandy said:
Yes, the Fighter airfields were well defended, but their civil and training airfields weren't.
And once the Mustangs came to town, no where west of Berlin was safe, even for civil fields with a handful of Steiglitz trainers.

Its a harsh fact, most of Germanys 'experten' were schooled in the training ground of the Spanish Civil War and the cake walk against utterly obsolescent types across most of Europe in 1939-40. - Once they met a professional Air Force with modern aircraft at the English Channel, it was tears before bedtime.

Only 8 of Germanys aces with more than 100 kills joined a Squadron after mid 1942.

There were many many airfields. Go look up deZeng et all. The schools were protected. Would be unwise not to do so.
Your harsh facts can do with a bit of reading up on the subject.

Macandy · Apr 12, 2022

Snautzer01 said:
There were many many airfields. Go look up deZeng et all. The schools were protected. Would be unwise not to do so.
Your harsh facts can do with a bit of reading up on the subject.

A couple of MG's isn't going to stop a Squadron of P-51's massacring the training aircraft they jump in the skies surrounding the field doing circuits unless the fighters for some perverse reason ignore the panicking trainers and insist on flying up and down the small grass strip.
And many 2nd and 3rd line elementary airfields were just that - a grass strip, a hut and some trainer and civil instructors - Maybe a home guard dude with an old MG-08, not some huge Luftwaffe fortified air base with multiple layers of flak. The elementary fields were very soft targets and considered very fair game.

ETA: Just looked up your source… sure enough,
Arbeitsplatz (training fields) grass fields, no infrastructure, no defences

FLYBOYJ · Apr 12, 2022

Macandy said:
They never even gave themselves the luxury at the start of the war.

Sorry, you're wrong and make many generalizations here - the Luftwaffe, as shown had a pretty robust training program at the start of the war. The expansion of the war overburdened all of Germany's resources (including pilot training). Targeting of oil resources and as well as the allied bombing offensive (once it was able to successfully operate with sustainable losses) eventually took it's toll

Macandy said:
The Luftwaffe was a WWI Airforce - in monoplanes - it never grasped the need to build a depth of skill, the cult of the 'Jeager' was written into it thanks to the likes of Goering.
The fighter was everything, the cult of the ace and the hunter was their creed - high scores were the thing, not teaching.
The Germans never really got past the WWI principle of 'learn on the job' at the Squadron.

Again - an opinion and generalization. No doubt Goering has his delusional take on what the Luftwaffe fighter forces should be accomplishing but to say that there was a cult of Luftwaffe pilots just caring about their scores is an opinion and generalization.

Macandy said:
Par example… the Battle of Britain.

The Germans lost hundreds of combat experienced pilots who flew relentlessly until they got shot down, and even more replacement pilots trying to learn on the job.
At the height of the Battle of Britain, the RAF had over 1,200 pilots with 100+ hours combat flying under their belts driving desks and in OCU's passing on lessons.
Rotating out never stopped for an RAF pilot, you hit the hours in your log, pack your bags and off to the rear.

And during the war the Luftwaffe did the same but could not maintain that training continuity because they (along will all of Germany's forces) were overburdened

Macandy said:
Its a common myth the RAF were throwing 'green' and 'barely trained' pilots into the fight because they were 'desperate'… nope, they were indeed green, but they'd all been to an OCU, and they were fed into the fight because they were next ones up. The 'how many hours have you got on a Spitfire', 'Six Sir' is often quoted as 'proof' the pilots were untrained, but its a misleading question, 'Six Sir' because most of his OCU hours were on a Hurricane - unsurprisingly, the RAFs premier fighter was a bit thin on the ground in OCU's.

The RAF was in a similar position as the Luftwaffe was in at the end of the war. Tactics, radar, the tenacity of those who did fight during the BoB, Hitler's stupidity and a little bit of luck untimely won the BoB

Macandy said:
From Sept 3 1939, the Luftwaffe was a constantly degrading force.
They were living for the next dogfight, the RAF was building for the 'long war'.

Again your opinion with no facts - and no one (not even the RAF) was ready for "the long war" in September 1939 -

Now with that said, I'm still waiting for you to name "a few of these "Experten" that you consider insane?"

FLYBOYJ · Apr 12, 2022

Macandy said:
Only 8 of Germanys aces with more than 100 kills joined a Squadron after mid 1942.

So tell us, who were they???

drgondog · Apr 12, 2022

Snautzer01 said:
But remember those airfields had good aaa support. Light and heavy. It was certainly not a turkey shoot but good planning to make it look like one. I believe i have read that attacking an airfield was quite dangerous. More then 1 allied air ace was shot down attacking those.

Interesting understatement. Probably 80+% of aces shot down were from flak. Dad's 355th FG lost zero aces to German fighters, but lost Olson, Koraleski, Brown (Lenfest stuck in mud trying to rescue Brown)

GrauGeist · Apr 12, 2022

The Luftwaffe had one if the most intensive pilot training programs of any air force in the world by the start of the European war.
It is true that the Luftwaffe had to make adjustments after 1942, as the fortunes of war turned against them and continued to degrade as the war drug on, but to assume that the Luftwaffe was putting trainee pilots into the fight during the Battle of Britain is amusing.

Macandy · Apr 12, 2022

If you use a wide definition of 1942… only the following 100+ aces joined operational Squadrons in and from 1942
With the exception of Ettal, all scored all or bar a few kills on the Eastern Front.

So… these new 'experten' weren't very expert against the well trained RAF and USAAF pilots who had no problem curbing the Luftwaffe

Hauptmann Erich Hartmann ~ 352
Oberleutnant Gerhard Thyben ~ 157
Hauptmann Franz Schall ~ 137
Oberleutnant Otto Fonnekold ~ 136
Oberleutnant Hans Waldmann ~ 134
Oberleutnant Wolf Ettal ~ 124
Oberleutnant Freiderich Oblese ~ 120
Leutnant Heinz Wernicke ~ 117
Leutnant Berthold Korts ~ 113
Oberleutnant Bernhard Vechtel ~ 108
Leutnant Heinz Sachsenberg ~ 104
Ulrich Wernitz ~ 101

And as for Hartmann?
352 kills, but he took 1,425 missions to achieve that.
Richard Bong scored 40 kills in 146 missions.

Average tour of duty USAAF pilot? 1 year, 100-150 missions.

Also, a very high proportion of Hartmanns kills were over very poor aircraft like the LaGG-3 and P-39, only a handful of his kills were combat-worthy adversaries..
Unlike the Luftwaffe over the Eastern Front, RAF and USAAF pilots didn't have the luxury of large numbers of elderly and obsolete aircraft to shoot down in one sided combats. They were fighting the Luftwaffe best types.

Macandy · Apr 12, 2022

GrauGeist said:
The Luftwaffe had one if the most intensive pilot training programs of any air force in the world by the start of the European war.
It is true that the Luftwaffe had to make adjustments after 1942, as the fortunes of war turned against them and continued to degrade as the war drug on, but to assume that the Luftwaffe was putting trainee pilots into the fight during the Battle of Britain is amusing.

Intensive initially, but unsuited to a war against a capable enemy able to inflict attrition. It had no strategic depth.

By 1944, the Luftwaffe was doomed
A School. 2 hours glider flying. 50 hours flying elementary trainers.
Fighter School. 40 hours flying. Replacement Fighter Group, 20 hours.

By 1944, a USAAF pilot received a full years training, including 200 hours on an operational conversion unit being trained by many combat veteran pilots passing on tips and tricks literally from the horses mouth.

And that last bit was always the Germans huge institutional weakness. It refused point blank to remove trained pilots from front line units to pass on their knowledge to the next generation of pilots. It was all about racking up huge personal scores, while their replacement pilots died like flies at the hands of vastly better trained and prepared pilots.
The RAF and USAAF absolutely grasped the importance of the OCU, the Germans never did - it was still learn fighting on the job as a wingman just like in 1914-18.
Even a trainee pilot who demonstrated excellence in training was sent immediately back to the training schools by the Allies as an instructor.

100% good pilots beats 95% cannon fodder and 5% excellent pilots every time.
The good pilots generally live to fight another day.

pbehn · Apr 12, 2022

Macandy said:
From Sept 3 1939, the Luftwaffe was a constantly degrading force.
They were living for the next dogfight, the RAF was building for the 'long war'.

Quite obviously not true. The LW gained in strength through to the invasion of Norway not only in numbers but in types like the Bf 109E. and Ju88. The RAF was playing catch up.

GrauGeist · Apr 12, 2022

Macandy said:
If you use a wide definition of 1942… only the following 100+ aces joined operational Squadrons in and from 1942
With the exception of Ettal, all scored all or bar a few kills on the Eastern Front.

So… these new 'experten' weren't very expert against the well trained RAF and USAAF pilots who had no problem curbing the Luftwaffe

Hauptmann Erich Hartmann ~ 352
Oberleutnant Gerhard Thyben ~ 157
Hauptmann Franz Schall ~ 137
Oberleutnant Otto Fonnekold ~ 136
Oberleutnant Hans Waldmann ~ 134
Oberleutnant Wolf Ettal ~ 124
Oberleutnant Freiderich Oblese ~ 120
Leutnant Heinz Wernicke ~ 117
Leutnant Berthold Korts ~ 113
Oberleutnant Bernhard Vechtel ~ 108
Leutnant Heinz Sachsenberg ~ 104
Ulrich Wernitz ~ 101

And as for Hartmann?
352 kills, but he took 1,425 missions to achieve that.
Richard Bong scored 40 kills in 146 missions.

Average tour of duty USAAF pilot? 1 year, 100-150 missions.

Also, a very high proportion of Hartmanns kills were over very poor aircraft like the LaGG-3 and P-39, only a handful of his kills were combat-worthy adversaries..
Unlike the Luftwaffe over the Eastern Front, RAF and USAAF pilots didn't have the luxury of large numbers of elderly and obsolete aircraft to shoot down in one sided combats. They were fighting the Luftwaffe best types.

Noy sure where you're going with this, but during the Battle of Britain, the Luftwaffe gained 204 aces alone - this was 1940.
The three most notable pilots who became "Experten", were Wick, Galland and Mölders who downed 147 enemy aircraft between the three of them.

If you'd like to learn more, I suggest reading "Luftwaffe Aces In The Battle Of Britain" by Chris Goss.

Then we can venture into the air war in the Mediterranean and North Africa to get another long list of aces.

And last time I checked, an Ace had a talley of 5 or more, so pointing out a handful of high-scoring pilots to try and prove a point doesn't work.

NTGray · Apr 12, 2022

Macandy said:
And as for Hartmann?
352 kills, but he took 1,425 missions to achieve that.
Richard Bong scored 40 kills in 146 missions.

Hartmann kills per mission: .247
Bong kills per mission: .274

Advantage Bong, but not by a lot. Hartmann would have gotten 390 at Bong's rate, and Bong would have gotten 36 at Hartmann's rate. Of course, one might also ask how many missions each flew where enemy aircraft were actually sighted and engaged. I seem to recall that Hartmann had 800 and something of those, and I don't know Bong's number.

FLYBOYJ · Apr 12, 2022

Macandy said:
If you use a wide definition of 1942… only the following 100+ aces joined operational Squadrons in and from 1942
With the exception of Ettal, all scored all or bar a few kills on the Eastern Front.

Actually Hartmann didn't fly his first combat mission until October 1942

Macandy said:
So… these new 'experten' weren't very expert against the well trained RAF and USAAF pilots who had no problem curbing the Luftwaffe

Hauptmann Erich Hartmann ~ 352
Oberleutnant Gerhard Thyben ~ 157
Hauptmann Franz Schall ~ 137
Oberleutnant Otto Fonnekold ~ 136
Oberleutnant Hans Waldmann ~ 134
Oberleutnant Wolf Ettal ~ 124
Oberleutnant Freiderich Oblese ~ 120
Leutnant Heinz Wernicke ~ 117
Leutnant Berthold Korts ~ 113
Oberleutnant Bernhard Vechtel ~ 108
Leutnant Heinz Sachsenberg ~ 104
Ulrich Wernitz ~ 101

The Luftwaffe wasn't "curbed" (at least in the west) until it was attacked on the ground.

"Arnold's mandate to destroy the Luftwaffe—set the stage for Doolittle's order to Kepner in January 1944 to go after the German fighters. By the end of January, the escorts had spread out into formations 25 miles wide with a squadron out front, sweeping the route for enemy aircraft. Soon entire groups of fighters were ranging 50 miles ahead to catch the German interceptors on the ground or as they were forming up to attack the bombers."

Targeting the Luftwaffe | Air & Space Forces Magazine

When Spaatz and Doolittle changed the fighter strategy, it was the beginning of the end for German air

www.airforcemag.com

Macandy said:
And as for Hartmann?
352 kills, but he took 1,425 missions to achieve that.
Richard Bong scored 40 kills in 146 missions.

352 "claims." Hartmann like Bong did have breaks in their tour. This is meaningless unless you can compare a snapshot of time when they both saw action. You also have to consider the mission they were flying and the numbers they were facing.

Macandy said:
Average tour of duty USAAF pilot? 1 year, 100-150 missions.

It varied throughout the war. There were some sent home after flying 25 missions, others came back for a second tour.

Macandy said:
Also, a very high proportion of Hartmanns kills were over very poor aircraft like the LaGG-3 and P-39, only a handful of his kills were combat-worthy adversaries..
Unlike the Luftwaffe over the Eastern Front, RAF and USAAF pilots didn't have the luxury of large numbers of elderly and obsolete aircraft to shoot down in one sided combats. They were fighting the Luftwaffe best types.

Now this is bogus - At the beginning of this thread you can see a list of 72 of his claims, the P-39 in the capacity it was operated by the Soviets was very formidable against the Luftwaffe and I believe most of the Soviet Union's aces flew the P-39. Hartmann WAS NOT flying against obsolete aircraft when he got into combat in late 1942 and the competition only got more difficult the longer he was in combat.

drgondog · Apr 12, 2022

Macandy said:
Average tour of duty USAAF pilot? 1 year, 100-150 missions.

??? Early war in SWP/CBI - maybe 75-100 missions.
Fighter pilots in ETO had a TOD of 250, then 300 hours - more missions for P-47 pilots than P-51/P-38. Dad's first tour was 300 hours, 62 missions. Second tour 12 missions, 60 hours when VE Day shut it down. All P-51B/C/D combat time.

Many aces rotated to States for Training Command after 1st TOD.

Many volunteered for second tour and got into your stated range with two full tours.

What was exceptional was the total number of pilot hours many aces had before combat - many with 400 plus. My father had 2050 before first mission on D-Day and 2057 when he got his first air victory, also on D-Day. Took him 68 more hours to get his 5th (60 days), and another 20 hours for two more. 29 missions for 7-1-1 air - but didn't see another chance for rest of both tours.

Snautzer01 · Apr 12, 2022

drgondog said:
Interesting understatement. Probably 80+% of aces shot down were from flak. Dad's 355th FG lost zero aces to German fighters, but lost Olson, Koraleski, Brown (Lenfest stuck in mud trying to rescue Brown)

I know. Trying to get M Macandy to the books. One can be an ace but lighting up an airfield defended with aaa is perhaps far more dangerous as you most certainly know. I think it is a different skill all together. That AAA shot at everything coming close. Even own airplanes.

Snautzer01 · Apr 12, 2022

Macandy said:
A couple of MG's isn't going to stop a Squadron of P-51's massacring the training aircraft they jump in the skies surrounding the field doing circuits unless the fighters for some perverse reason ignore the panicking trainers and insist on flying up and down the small grass strip.
And many 2nd and 3rd line elementary airfields were just that - a grass strip, a hut and some trainer and civil instructors - Maybe a home guard dude with an old MG-08, not some huge Luftwaffe fortified air base with multiple layers of flak. The elementary fields were very soft targets and considered very fair game.

ETA: Just looked up your source… sure enough,
Arbeitsplatz (training fields) grass fields, no infrastructure, no defences

Why American aces had lower scores than anybody else

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