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Agreed.
They only had 1,200 pilots with 100 plus hours training if you include Dowding Park and Leigh Mallory in the count. At the declaration of war there were around 120 Spitfires in service, at the fall of France there were around 500 Spitfires and Hurricanes in service circa 250 of each. To have 1,200 pilots trained on type at the height of the BoB is a mathematical impossibility and your figure of 100+ hours means nothing, a pilot needed 200 hours on average to be "in the game". Bearing in mind they were locally outnumbered by pilots that had on average more hours on type and their job was to get past the fighters and attack the bombers.Its a common myth the RAF were throwing 'green' and 'barely trained' pilots into the fight because they were 'desperate'… nope, they were indeed green, but they'd all been to an OCU, and they were fed into the fight because they were next ones up. The 'how many hours have you got on a Spitfire', 'Six Sir' is often quoted as 'proof' the pilots were untrained, but its a misleading question, 'Six Sir' because most of his OCU hours were on a Hurricane - unsurprisingly, the RAFs premier fighter was a bit thin on the ground in OCU's.
It was a statistical lottery. Some units and squadrons worked on attacking airfield, working over the AA defences systematically, but that is only against what was known by intel or could be seen from the air. There is nothing that prevents the private from the cookhouse grabbing a rifle and having a lucky shot. If you are in range to shoot up an airfield there are possibly a lot of men with a rifle close bye and its a long way back from Germany,Agreed.
Many Luftwaffe airfields had "killing zones" of AA situated so that if you approached outside of the designated pattern, you had little chance of survival and if you did approach in the designated pattern but were not recognized/approved, you got shot up, too.
And their AA was layered (in different calibers) which meant that at tree-top or 10,000 feet, they were going to work you over.
Quite obviously not true. The LW gained in strength through to the invasion of Norway not only in numbers but in types like the Bf 109E. and Ju88. The RAF was playing catch up.
Read more.
What attrition was there between the fall of Poland and the invasion of Norway? When France fell, how many Bf 109Es had the LW with trained pilots in service compared to the RAF's Hurricanes and Spitfires? Some RAF pilots shot down in 1940 had trained in peacetime, and served in France and the Battle of Britain, how on were they replaced with a pilot with the same level of training and experience you have said yourself some had only 50-100 hrs on type?Numbers of airframes means nothing if your core of highly experienced pilots is being attritted and not replaced.
An RAF pilot shot down in 1940 was replaced by one as well trained, one shot down in 1943 was replaced by one better trained.
The Luftwaffe entered WWII with a large cadre of highly skilled pilots who'd had the luxury of a peacetime training programme and learned their trade in the Spanish Civil War - but a real war saw them being steadily lost and replaced with less well trained pilots.
The RAF was gaining both in numbers of aircraft and combat experienced pilots from 1939.
By 1943 the Luftwaffe was two air forces - a small and diminishing cadre of highly trained pre war pilots, and a large Air Force of poorly trained cannon fodder.
Actually no. LF Reich for Defense of Germany increasingly concentrated forces out of range of medium bombers. Only LF 3 with JG 26 and JG 2 remained in medium bomber range There were exceptions, particularly during the invasion when many JG3 and JG 11 fighters reinforced LW forces in West.Even the main highly defended airfields - the USAAF had a simply answer by late 1944.
They simply flew a few hundred medium bombers over them and turned them into moonscapes.
There's a reason so many Experten saw out their war operating out of farmers fields and stretches of road.
View attachment 664681
Even the main highly defended airfields - the USAAF had a simply answer by late 1944.
They simply flew a few hundred medium bombers over them and turned them into moonscapes.
There's a reason so many Experten saw out their war operating out of farmers fields and stretches of road.
View attachment 664681
This photo is of Volkel airfield in Holland.Even the main highly defended airfields - the USAAF had a simply answer by late 1944.
They simply flew a few hundred medium bombers over them and turned them into moonscapes.
There's a reason so many Experten saw out their war operating out of farmers fields and stretches of road.
View attachment 664681
It was a series of bombing missions between August and September 1944.Too many craters for just one RAF bomber squadron.
This photo is of Volkel airfield in Holland.
This was not the result of "a few hundred medium bombers" of the USAAF.
This is the work of Bomber Command 460 Sqd. Lancasters.
Gabreski, among others, might disagree........................ Yes, I know it was a prop strike, but isn't AAA the reason he was flying so low?A couple of MG's isn't going to stop a Squadron of P-51's massacring the training aircraft they jump in the skies surrounding the field doing circuits unless the fighters for some perverse reason ignore the panicking trainers and insist on flying up and down the small grass strip.
And many 2nd and 3rd line elementary airfields were just that - a grass strip, a hut and some trainer and civil instructors - Maybe a home guard dude with an old MG-08, not some huge Luftwaffe fortified air base with multiple layers of flak. The elementary fields were very soft targets and considered very fair game.
ETA: Just looked up your source… sure enough,
Arbeitsplatz (training fields) grass fields, no infrastructure, no defences
Too many craters for just one RAF bomber squadron.
Back at you nuuumannn.Ah, but not too many for an RAAF squadron
Just messing with you, Milosh, I get your point. 460 was an Aussie unit, though.
The 9th Air Force summary notes 1 Ar96, 1 Fw44 and 1 Fw56, plus 12 unknown types claimed as shot down, the 8th Air Force summary puts any trainer claims into the 146 other and unknown category. The curtailment of Luftwaffe training by allied long range fighters was mostly the threat, not the reality of losses in the air, then comes the losses from strafing, and such operations really date from mid 1944. Also plenty of training airfields existed for take off and landing practice, not meant to house aircraft overnight or do repairs.Unlike an RAF or USAAF pilot under training who had no worries about being attacked, being shot down was a constant fear for Luftwaffe trainees.
To maintain front line Fighter Command strength in 1940 the RAF cut OTU courses in half, as well as moving pilots from Bomber Command and the RN, plus integrated the pilots from other countries at war with Germany, this actually enabled official pilot strength to increase but overall quality dropped, the A, B and C squadrons designations, with C effectively training units shows the pilot problems well, the Luftwaffe went through the same thing but worse, as Williamson Murray notes, operational Bf109 pilots on 1 May 1940 were 1,010, on 1 September 735. As the Luftwaffe did not exist for over a decade post WWI the early WWII losses deprived it of experienced "middle management" in a way the allied air forces were better able to avoid.At the height of the Battle of Britain, the RAF had over 1,200 pilots with 100+ hours combat flying under their belts driving desks and in OCU's passing on lessons.
Its a common myth the RAF were throwing 'green' and 'barely trained' pilots into the fight because they were 'desperate'… nope, they were indeed green, but they'd all been to an OCU, and they were fed into the fight because they were next ones up.
In 1939/40 the Luftwaffe grew in terms of quality and quantity, things like the Ju88 and Bf110 (replacing the Bf109D in Zestorer units), in 1941 there was the Bf109F, Do217 and Fw190. The return of Luftwaffe personnel captured by the French helped retain quality as well. On 2 September 1939 the Luftwaffe Quartermaster reported 3,609 combat aircraft on strength, that grew to 4,867 on 4 May 1940, losses in France and withdrawal of units to re-equip dropped strength back to 4,129 by end June and it was 4,104 on 2 November. On 14 June 1941 strength was 4,887, with almost 200 more reconnaissance, 200 more fighters, but 300 fewer bombers than May 1940. On 3 January 1942 strength was 4,157, continuing a regular theme of build up to the summer campaign then reductions in strength until winter.From Sept 3 1939, the Luftwaffe was a constantly degrading force.
In 1940 the RAF was receiving more pilots and aircraft than its opponent. The Luftwaffe raids on London did do what the Luftwaffe wanted, force major combats, drawing in large numbers of defending fighters creating the large air battles the Luftwaffe needed to win well before the weather ruled out an invasion, but the defenders won, unlike similar 8th Air Force operations in 1944 (Berlin in March 1944 anyone?)The RAF was in a similar position as the Luftwaffe was in at the end of the war. Tactics, radar, the tenacity of those who did fight during the BoB, Hitler's stupidity and a little bit of luck untimely won the BoB
Again your opinion with no facts - and no one (not even the RAF) was ready for "the long war" in September 1939 -
Agreed on the 1,200 pilots idea.They only had 1,200 pilots with 100 plus hours training if you include Dowding Park and Leigh Mallory in the count. At the declaration of war there were around 120 Spitfires in service, at the fall of France there were around 500 Spitfires and Hurricanes in service circa 250 of each.
It isnt an idea it is a fact, Park obviously had a pilots license, he also had his own Hurricane, but if he was acting as a fighter pilot it was last ditch stuff conceding that you had lost or would do shortly. There are always lots of people with such a qualification, like Park, also training instructors, airfield commanders, and those who have worked up in the organisation. There are also people like Douglas Bader, but with different injuries that mean they couldnt fly in combat or even think about it. And then there are those like Al Deere, who returned from France fit but tired and was posted to a training squadron, he collided with a student (probably vice versa), writing off two aircraft and was injured on landing, temporarily out of commission, he of course still had a pilots license.Agreed on the 1,200 pilots idea.