Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
Mal,
The Air Attache was Group Capt. Pirie, definitely RAF.
I remember Malcolm LeCompte raised the issue of this topic in a 1996 issue of the AAHS Journal (which seems, for the moment, to be misfiled in my mare's nest...err, library) and his conclusion was that the F2A-1 would have been invaluable at the time of fighting around Norway in 1940. But the British were not thinking of the Brewster as a naval fighter - their first assignment of the ex-Belgian 339B's was to a land-based squadron, 71 (and that didn't go well, of course). So I'm not sure that the mindset issue was so much two-seat versus single seat carrier aircraft, but rather carrier aircraft taking a (very) back seat to the air defence of Great Britain.
The other odd thing in the 1940 order is that the British insisted on four .50 caliber machine guns, based on some early recognition that .303's were a tad lacking in punch. But when the Buffalo came into full service a year and a half later, in south-east Asia, providing .50 ammunition became a great problem (for both the British and the Dutch). I wonder what the situation in metropolitan Britain was in 1940 re .50 ammunition?
The real weakness in this argument is then the timing and focus on mission. The RN-FAA hadn't yet experienced the inadaquacy of its aircraft or anticipated the need for an aircraft to establish air supremacy.
I believe that first became critically apparent during the Norway campaign. However it looks like the Sea Gladiator was incorporated into the FAA stable prior to September 1939 which suggests there was some institutional awareness of a deficiency in that area.
I can see the BPC, which I assume started its search for North American produced aircraft in late 39 - early 40, would have been seduced by the same prospect as the USN and at about the same time: the advent of the F2A-2 and wanted to get aboard that train too, not forseeing the end result once the aircraft was made acceptable for British service.
It strikes me that the real issue, that hindsight has obscurred, is that in mid to late 1939, when such a decision would have to have been made to faciliate introduction of the F2A-1 into the FAA in time to see action in early to mid 1940, no one really knew what the war would require of its aircraft.
Although some of the ex-Belgian aircraft started driting in in late 1940, they were really a 1941 addition, by which time Britain's domestic aircraft industry was Beaverbrooking away and the Brewsters were surplus to requirements. I know one or two 805 Squadron aircraft were trialed on Eagle but I doubt a whole squadron. Since all naval equipment had been removed (notably the tailhook) it is not surprising that the ex-Belgian aircraft weren't seen as ideal for carrier ops. Maybe you could expand on the issue of wing folding, though. I've heard that before but I don't recall the Sea Hurricane's wings folded any better, and that aircraft had a greater span than the Brewster.
I can't help but wonder if there weren't a few soon to be independent (as in non-RAF) circa 1938 -1939 FAA pilots looking over their shoulders with some little envy at developments in the USN wrt to the F2A-1. That is just aviator-DNA and separate from organizational doctrine or policy. So while as an organization, FAA procurement may have been guided by perceptions of its future mission requirements, I wonder what individual pilots thought about their equipment compared to developments in other navies with significant embarked aviation components. (e.g. USN, IJN, France and visible on the near horizon, Germany)
Very few F2As of any variant ever saw service in the USN and even fewer aboard USN CVs. In 1939 the FAA was not really behind either the USN or IJN in terms of CV aircraft design, IMHO, it was not till 1941/42 that the FAA really fell behind the USN and IJN in terms of design, as both the IJN and USN reequipped with new types while the FAA's planned aircraft were delayed due to lowered production and design priorities following the BofB.
The advanced TBD certainly outlived its service, but for its time appeared to be well advanced over the venerable Swordfish. Only war time service would show the inadaquacy of the TBD and USN Torpedoes in their very different role than that employed by the relatively antiquated but enormously useful SF armed with a superior weapon than what the USN was using. I think the Skua was a noble effort but don't believe it compares to either the F2A-1 or SBD as either a fighter or a dive bomber. On the other hand the legendary SF is truly immortal.
We are back to where we started I can see....TBD was a superior design only in top speed to the Swordfish. The Swordfish was a more stanle platform, slower, but more accurate. The Swordfish was a bigger aircraft, more suited to rough weather conditions. It had more space intermnally to put stuff, and was an overall stronger airframe, as its use as a divebomber and its ability to aerobat (allbeit at a very slow speed) were also qualities hidden in the appearance of the a/c, but present nevertheless. There were very good reasons why the Swordfish became a legend, and the unfortunate TBD a costly footnote in history.....
As far as superior armament, the problems with the Bliss Levitt were real enough, but not nearly as big a problem as the poor crew training and aircrafdt deficiencies. Ive just fnished reading a post war interrogation of the Japanese leader of the "Genzan" air corps which undertook the successful attacks on the PoW and Repulse in 1941. In theory, Japanese torpedoes could be dropped from 200feet and at speeds in exces of 250 mph. But at that speed less than 10% of launches ran true or detonated. Really, to have a better than 70% success rate, speeds had to be kept under 200mph and drop heights below 20 feet for the japanese. This means, quite frankly, that US torpedoes were not as bad as is often used to excuse the destruction and lack of success faced by the TBDs at Midway. British Torps faced similar reliability issues at Taranto, where about 30% either failed to detonate, and or failed to run true either in depth or heading. The problem with the TBD was not as much atributable to the admittedly poor torpedo as is so often presented. it was more to do with the aircraft and/or its crews. The aircraft was a dud as far as a day aircraft, and unfortuantely, thats all it could do....
Skua in no way compares to the SBD, but it has advantages over the f2a in terms of multi role capability, wing folding, reliability over the brewster. we have covered this previously, and made very clear why the Brewster was not suited at all to FAA requirements. Too specialized, not enough performance superiority to matter, unreliable armament, no wing folding, poor serviceability and possibly leaky fuel tanks . For a struggling service like the FAA this made it (the F2A) a totally unnacceptable mount
During and prior to 1939: the IJN flew and introduced the A6M Zeke, the D3A VAL and the B5N Kate.
The new version was so promising that the Navy had 15 built and shipped to China before they had completed testing. They arrived in Manchuria in July 1940...
...After the delivery of only 65 aircraft by November 1940, a further change was worked into the production lines, which introduced folding wingtips to allow them to fit on aircraft carriers. The resulting Model 21 would become one of the most produced versions early in the war.
Mitsubishi A6M Zero - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The D3A1 commenced carrier qualification trials aboard the Akagi and Kaga during 1940, while a small number of aircraft made their combat debut from land bases over China.
Aichi D3A - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Northrop BT-1 provided the basis for the SBD, which began manufacture in 1940. Ed Heinemann led a team of designers who considered a development with a 1,000 hp (750 kW) Wright Cyclone powerplant. A year earlier, both the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps had placed orders for the new dive bombers, designated the SBD-1 and SBD-2 (the latter had increased fuel capacity and different armament). The SBD-1 went to the Marine Corps in late 1940, and the SBD-2 went to the Navy in early 1941
Douglas SBD Dauntless - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Engine
(B5N1) One 770 hp Nakajima Hikari 3 9-Cylinder radial
(B5N1 Model 12 ) 970 hp or 985 hp Sakae 11 14-Cylinder 2-row radial
(B5N2) 1,115 hp Sakae 21 radial
http://www.angelfire.com/fm/compass/jtp.htm
On board Hiryu, attack leader Lieutenant Tomonaga watched as her nine escort fighters departed, led by the athletic and energetic Lt. Shigematsu Yasuhiro. Right after them, three Zeros under Lt. Tori Shigeru, whose shots was leading the morning's first combat air patrol watch, departed with similar alacrity. Getting Tomonaga's kanko in the air, however, was a different story altogether. Fully loaded, his plane weighed more than four tons, almost 400 pounds more than a dive-bomber, and more than a ton heavier than a Zero. Yet his horsepower-to-weight ratio was the lowest of the three types of carrier planes in the fleet. In a word, the Type 97 was a pig. He would need every ounce of power to make it off the deck.
The compound wind over Hiryu's flight deck generally needed to be around thirteen meters/second (twenty-six knots) to launch aircraft, but Tomonaga's Type 97s really were better off if the relative wind was closer to fifteen meters/second (thirty knots). This created problems for the older Kaga, whose top speed of twenty eight knots (on a good day) meant that she could barely launch her Type 97s if there was no wind. Too much wind, though, could be a problem in itself—at speeds above twenty-five meters/second the planes were impossible to control on the flight deck. On Hiryu, creating relative wind wasn't an issue—Yamaguchi's flagship had plenty of speed. But even under ideal conditions, Tomonaga's heavily laden bird still needed around 120 meters to make it into the air. On the shorter flight decks of Hiryu and Soryu this was problematic, particularly for the lead strike aircraft spotted at the head of the pack. Tomonaga's nose was almost atop the central elevator. From here it was 135 meters to the forward end of the flight deck—doable, but hardly comfortable.
Under the circumstances, the only thing Tomonaga could do was jam his throttle all the way to the stops, pop the brakes, and hope for the best. If worse came to worst and he went into the drink, hopefully Hiryu wouldn't run over his plane. Then the guard destroyer would pluck him and his men to safety. He gunned his engine. His kanko began plodding down the deck, gaining speed with agonizing slowness. He could see his plane coming up on the white-painted wind gauge and the steam jet at the forward end of the flight deck—it was happening all too quickly. Then, seemingly at the last second, his plane nosed up and lifted grudgingly from Hiryu's deck. Cheers rang out again from the crew galleries. Tomonaga immediately began circling to port, putting his plane into a waiting pattern as the rest of his squadron took off. One by one, Hiryu's kankotai, clutching their deadly cargoes to their bellies like great, green dragons, lumbered into the air. Across the water, the other carriers were doing the same—sending their heavy attack planes up into the growing light. The last to leave the decks were a Type 97 kanko apiece from Kaga and Akagi. These two planes were slated to join the search missions that were already getting under way from the cruisers and battleships...
Shattered Sword, p128-129
Before its replacement, the B4Y1 had flown during the Second Sino-Japanese War and served at the Battle of Midway during June 1942, where eight of them were operated from Hōshō.[2] It was one of these planes from Hōshō which took photographs of the burning Hiryū on 5 June 1942.[3]
[2]: Shattered Sword, p453
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yokosuka_B4Y
Very few F2As of any variant ever saw service in the USN and even fewer aboard USN CVs. In 1939 the FAA was not really behind either the USN or IJN in terms of CV aircraft design, IMHO, it was not till 1941/42 that the FAA really fell behind the USN and IJN in terms of design, as both the IJN and USN reequipped with new types while the FAA's planned aircraft were delayed due to lowered production and design priorities following the BofB.
I have to admit RAFson, your most recent post and the earlier ones of Parsifal have provoked me to consider some new aspects of this whole issue. First, considering the importance of the Mediterranean campaign, why was the FAA in March of 1941 so desparately short of fighter aircraft it considered deployment of the entirely carrier unsuitable B-339B?
USN:
XF4F-2 first flown in September 1937 with design initiated prior circa 1936
XF4F-3 first flight January 1939, introduction in early 1940.
XF2A-1 first flight in December 1937, Introduction (albeit at a Glacially slow pace) begun in May 1939. design in circa 1936
BT-1 first flight August 1935, design early 1935, BT-2/SBD-1 first flight April, 1938 design 1937, SBD introduction circa 1940
TBD-1 first flight April 1935, design 1934. introduction circa 1937
IJN:
A6M Zeke: first flight 1939, design circa 1938
D3A Val: first flight January 1938, design 1937
B5M Kate: first flight: January 1937, design 1936
So please tell me what prompts you to believe the FAA designs were on a par with either naval air arm prior to 1940? What FAA designs possessed performance competitive to those of these two navies? Please cite the designs of the FAA, not simply the deficiencies of those of the IJN and USN.
If I can be presumptuous I might suggest a rewording of your statement to be:
"FAA designs circa (1937-40) were more appropriate for (or well suited to) its carrier's specific design atributes than those of other navies."
Of the USN aircraft listed above only the folding wing F4F proved to be well suited to RN carriers while perhaps none of those of the IJN would have been.
You suggest that the F2A was a failed experiment when the F2A-1 and -2 equipped two of the USN's embarked fighter squadrons from 1940 through 1941. These two squadrons were the USN's premier units (VF-2 -3), before being progressively replaced by the seriously flawed F2A-3 and the more promising and capable F4F-3 and F4F-3A which incidentally didn't replace the F2A-2s then in service but rather were used to equip the squadrons using obsolescent biplanes. VF-2 itself reequipped with the newly acquired F2A-3, which suggests there was little official anticipation of the failure it would prove to be. (Not what you'd predict for a failed experiment) As has been stated repeatedly, the real issue limiting deployment numbers of the F2A was the failure of the company not the aircraft but of course, in retrospect Brewster's failure to produce was a blessing. Ignoring the F2A-1 -2, is IMO stacking the deck to make a point that IMHO is simply untenable.
As an example of what appears to me to be an apparently biased perspective, you ignore in your accounting not only the service of the F2A-1 and -2 in 1941 but also the 81 Martlet-1s and IIIs most of which entered FAA service in 1940 and early 1941. Had the USA not been giving away aircraft to an embattled West, those F4Fs would have been taken in hand by the USN, completed to USN standards as F4F-3 or 3A and filled most of the remaining USN squadrons: VF-7, VF-42, VF-6 and VF-71 and half of VF-5. It seems a bit ungracious of you to neglect their contribution to the FAA stable and not include the F4F as "in service" regardless of whether USN or FAA. Although I do wonder why the roughly 60 surviving naval-equipped airframes were assigned to shore bases while the short-legged Sea Hurricane was introduced onto RN Flight decks. Could it have been the probable early (pre-Grumman TBF F6F) logistical and handling advantage of the HSH or a bit of NIH? Just wondering. In truth, from a purely risk-avoidance perspective, I'd rather land a HSH on board any CV than an F4F. I just like that wide stance as do I suspect most naval aviators would prefer.
By your reasoning I could argue the Skua was a failed experiment that foreshadowed the overdue development of the Fulmar I and II, which finally brought to fruition the FAA goal of an effective carrier based multirole fighter. But I am wondering, did the Fulmar ever drop a 500 pound bomb on an enemy target or sink a ship.
I have no problem calling the F2A-3 or export B-339s failed anything you care to call them, but to me that has no bearing on whether the F2A-1 or F2A-2 or even a hypothetical navalized B-339 could have made a difference flying from RN CVs in 1940-41. I think on this account we'll just have to agree to disagree.