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But my understanding is the northern coast of Australia is so baren and wild in spots that nobody noticed them.
But if the Japenese did attack an Austrialian city with a suicide commando attack, it would definitely freak the citizens out in a big way. Same in the US or anywhere else. Especially if it was a sneak attack during the start of a war (as apposed to an action in the middle of a war).
However, I can't imagine it would be particularly effective from a military point of view. What are they after? What is the mission?
You can do that by just bombing them and it would have pretty much the same effect. Or just run a cruiser down the coast and shell the city.
Expensive attack with limited long term results. Better ways to do it.
I can't see the Govt. withdrawing troops from overseas. In WWII Australia basically had two Armies, the 2nd AIF which was a volunteer force to serve overseas and the CMF (Citizen Military Force) also called the Militia which was tasked with the defence of the mainland. A quick browse of the Militia Order of Battle on Dec 7th 1941 came up with the following units:-The mission is to create some panic, that would force the government to put troops along the coasts, (where the Japanese have no intention of attacking) instead of sending them to N. Guinea or the Solomons or somewhere where they really are needed.
I believe Menzies our prime Minister was suggesting if the Japanese did invade that our defences be in place at Brisbane and then effectively push them back.
My grandfather was there when they first bombed Darwin for a trival piece of info.
I can't see the Govt. withdrawing troops from overseas. In WWII Australia basically had two Armies, the 2nd AIF which was a volunteer force to serve overseas and the CMF (Citizen Military Force) also called the Militia which was tasked with the defence of the mainland. A quick browse of the Militia Order of Battle on Dec 7th 1941 came up with the following units:-
{source- www.diggerhistory.com}
Several other Militia divisions were also raised later on making more then enough troops to deal with Commando raids IMO. Added to this is the many fixed coastal gun defences and AA and searchlight units scattered around the country.
Very interesting scenerio I must admit.
Emac said:Reminded me of the attacks by Australian Commandos in Singapore Harbour. However I would imagine there would have been some initial panic by the Australian Population but not to the degree of a widespread route from coastal areas like Brisbane or Darwin or Townsville or even Cairns.
Emac44 said:I also have to point out that convoys leaving Australia were only too well aware of submarine and surface vessel contacts and so was the Australian Navy at the time Free. So approaching an unknown or suspicious vessel as your scenerio quotes and with a registar of a Submarine contact on a HMAS Cruisers Sonar would definitely raise some suspicious by the HMAS Cruiser Crews. So a freighter popping up some where even in less travelled sea lanes would definitely caused some concerns.
Wikipedia said:Japanese submarines sank 17 ships in Australian waters in 1942 (14 of which were near the Australian coast) By forcing ships sailing along the east coast to travel in convoy the Japanese submarines were successful in reducing the efficiency of Australian coastal shipping. This lower efficiency translated into between 7.5% and 22% less tonnage being transported between Australian ports each month
In 1943 five Japanese submarines sank nine ships and damaged several others. Five of the ships sunk off the Australian east coast were travelling in escorted convoys at the time they were attacked. The convoy escorts were not successful in detecting any submarines before they launched their attacks or counter-attacking these submarines.
The Japanese Submarine would have had more success then the Freighter scenerio in my opinion Free. As for the Bogus Paper work left by the Freighter Commander those would have been evaluated by Military Intelligence for what they were and decided upon with formal investigations taking place on the paper work. How they would be evaluated like your scenerio has a myrid of possiblities
G'day Freebird. The RAAF had been conducting maritime patrols around the Australian coast pretty much from the beginning of WWII, remembering that German surface raiders had been operating in Australian waters from mid 1940. Before Japan entered the war this was carried out by mainly Hudsons , Ansons and Wirraways.Thanks!
Emac Were there regular Maritime patrols of coastal waters by Beauforts or other aircraft in 1941? Or was that only after the Japanese attack?
Correct, convoys weren't instituted until June 1942.If the attack took place in early Nov 1941, this would be before the Kormoran incedent.
Did the convoys in your waters not start AFTER Pearl Harbour?
In Nov 41 I believe a sub would have an excellent chance of dropping off commandos onto the coast. Australian ASW efforts were hampered throughout the war because of a lack of adequte ASW equipment, and not enough aircraft and naval ships to patrol such a massive coastline. In Nov 41 it would have been even less effective then in 1943 when the Japanese launched their sub offensive and our anti-sub defences were in full swing.I wonder how much chance there would be to detect a sub by sonar in peacetime? It seems like they were not all that successful even later in protected convoys.
AgreedI think you might be right though, Submarine insertation would probably be the best.
True, Australia had been slowly gearing up for a conflict in the Pacific, with the Government deploying several RAAF squadrons and Army units to Rabual, Port Moresby, Singapore etc. However these units were small, under equipped and generally undertrained, most of our resources were being sent to Europe and North Africa.Also I think Australia would be the MOST prepared for this, an attack on the US or Canadian west coast would have a FAR Larger impact, as the people are not expecting a Japanese attack, unlike the Aussies, who had been eying the Japanese Empire with concern for many years.
And they'd be dead within a month without transportGive me 75 Brandenburgers, elite soldiers of the Abwehr trained by the FallschirmJägers, GebirgsJägers, Panzergrenadiers, Pioniers, Wehrmacht Luftwaffe to be no less than an excellent SOF.
Lets say the year is 1942, and either a German flying boat (Or Japanese) or a Japanese sub drops off the German SOF's near the Australian coast, close to a major city.
The German Commandos would need the following equipment;
30 x FG-42's : These will serve as LMGs, combat rifles sniper rifles in the unit, therefore most will be equipped with this weapon. The 4X ZFG 42 scope will be available to all, as-well will 40 round mags.
10 x K98k's (Two with 8X scopes): Sharpshooters 2 x Long range sniperrifles, plus close support by use of rifle grenades.
4 x MG-42's : Primary support MG
2 x MG-34's with tripod : HMG, excellent for extreme long range fire.
10 x 50mm Mortars : Light artillery support
5 x 81mm Mortars : Medium artillery support
5 x 120mm Mortars : Heavy artillery support
4 x 10.5cm LG.40 recoilless cannons : AT gun (Very effective with HC projectiles), medium artillery support.
4 x 20mm Rheinmetall Solothurn S-18's : Long range anti-personnel rifle AT rifle.
20 x MP-40's : SMG
50 x P-38's : Sidearm
Additional equipment: Lots of plastic explosives, silencers, stick, apple, smoke bundle grenades. Some AT Anti personnel mines. Light long range radios. Lots of rifle grenades. etc etc etc.. I could go on and on...
A Brandenburg unit equipped like the above could last a very long time in Australia, causing some serious havoc, utilizing guerilla tactics with hit run attacks on towns cities causing panic all round.
And they'd be dead within a month without transport
Give me 75 Brandenburgers, elite soldiers of the Abwehr trained by the FallschirmJägers, GebirgsJägers, Panzergrenadiers, Pioniers, Wehrmacht Luftwaffe to be no less than an excellent SOF.
Lets say the year is 1942, and either a German flying boat (Or Japanese) or a Japanese sub drops off the German SOF's near the Australian coast, close to a major city.
The German Commandos would need the following equipment;
30 x FG-42's : These will serve as LMGs, combat rifles sniper rifles in the unit, therefore most will be equipped with this weapon. The 4X ZFG 42 scope will be available to all, as-well will 40 round mags.
10 x K98k's (Two with 8X scopes): Sharpshooters 2 x Long range sniperrifles, plus close support by use of rifle grenades.
4 x MG-42's : Primary support MG
2 x MG-34's with tripod : HMG, excellent for extreme long range fire.
10 x 50mm Mortars : Light artillery support
5 x 81mm Mortars : Medium artillery support
5 x 120mm Mortars : Heavy artillery support
4 x 10.5cm LG.40 recoilless cannons : AT gun (Very effective with HC projectiles), medium artillery support.
4 x 20mm Rheinmetall Solothurn S-18's : Long range anti-personnel rifle AT rifle.
20 x MP-40's : SMG
50 x P-38's : Sidearm
Additional equipment: Lots of plastic explosives, silencers, stick, apple, smoke bundle grenades. Some AT Anti personnel mines. Light long range radios. Lots of rifle grenades. etc etc etc.. I could go on and on...
A Brandenburg unit equipped like the above could last a very long time in Australia, causing some serious havoc, utilizing guerilla tactics with hit run attacks on towns cities causing panic all round.