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Aboriginals and Torres Strait Islanders were used in WWII as a recon and surveilance force. They wouldn't have to engage the commandos, simply track them down and radio their position. I don't care how elite the Germans were, in the Australian bush they would easily be tracked down by the aborigines. I highly doubt anyone could successfully cover all their tracks, especially if they're hauling around heavy weapons or driving through the bush in trucks.
Their camo uniforms might be great for Europe but would stand out like dog balls in the Australian bush.
Their concealment skills aren't going to help either, as their "tracks" will lead the aboriginals straight to them.
Agreed, however if the aboriginals were to be used to engage the enemy, it would be in guerrilla type warfare, not stand in the open and throw a boomerang at them. They would simply appear out of the bush, kill one or two at a time with spears and then melt back into the landscape. If they can do this to animals, what chance has a human got?
And as for the Australian mentality, again you're not supermen, you're just like everyone else; scared witless in the event of such an attack.
And finally, I'm a moron.
Emac44,
Just because the KM decided not to involve forces in the indian ocean until 43 doesn't in any way mean they couldn't send boats to Australia. The decision which was made was not to start sending masses of boats to this area, that's all.
And as for the Australian mentality, again you're not supermen, you're just like everyone else; scared witless in the event of such an attack.
And finally, I'm not an American.
Don't you dare call any one clueless Soren. There is no need for that. Yes I made the assumption you was an American stupid or otherwise. You read into my comment as you being an American as you being stupid. That was your own understanding of my post which you read into it. So no one offended you by your nationality. Now I read you referring to Aussie 101 as a clueless Aussie and he has the right to disagree with you. But your scenerio keeps falling down and often. You proposed a scenerio and we have picked holes in it. Which is our right to do just as you have the right to proposed the scenerio in the first place. I suggest as the kids say today Soren. You need to take a CHILL PILL. I think Soren you need to apologise to Aussie and him the same to you.
Nothing crappy about the plan Aussie, only your understanding of it.
As for no'one agreeing with me, well tell me how do you know that ?? Not many have been involving themselves in this discussion at all.
You've only demonstrated that you're clueless Aussie, trying to compare animals with Humans. Well here's a news flash for you: Humans aren't easy to hunt down, esp. not when they're highly trained military professionals.
And as to the Germans being superhumans, now where the heck did that come from??! First I'm accused of being a stupid American then a Nazi! Such blatant accusations usually only come from someone who's run out of sensible arguments.
And as to your rude remarks, well you see kid calling others morons just doesn't get you anywhere, esp. in a place like this. So for you own sake, stop it.
Oh and finally, I'm not German either.
Not many have been involving themselves in this discussion at all.
I guess the thing is that when the 'discussion' starts to turns ugly, most people tend not to participate.
Some 'discussions' can get way out of hand. This happened one hours drive East of where I live...of course alcohol was involved!
Very well said Graeme, no need for the discussion to get "snarky". {that's English I think, I wonder if it has the same meaning in Oz?
Again the point of this thread was to explore the possibility of a smaller nation {in terms of Army} to use deception, and misdirection to force the defender to divert scarce resources to defending areas other than that which is the attackers objective. The British were very effective in doing this for the invasion od Sicily etc, with operation "Bodyguard", "Mincemeat" and others.
When I said the Axis plan a combined attack I meant JAPAN would make attacks against AUSTRALIA, and GERMANY would attack AMERICAN targets, thus forcing these two countries to divert forces to home defence that were urgently needed elsewhere. It makes much more sense for Germany to use it's resources against USA, as this is the country that will ultimately provide the airpower that will help win the war in Europe.
So just for arguments sake {and to end a rather snippy exchange}, assume that it is Japan that makes a few suicide attacks against Australia.
Graeme said:As Wildcat pointed out the Darwin raid led to a panic flight of military personnel and civilians into the interior. A number of books have been published on the subject and conclude that it wasn't one of Australia's better moments in the war.
The raid itself, was however, described by Nagumo's biographer, Captain Matsushima Kiezo, as using a "sledgehammer to crack an egg."
I'm curious to hear more about the effects of Darwin attack, was there ever a public enquiry? Was the "panic" hushed up during wartime?
Well I apologise to the Americans then Soren. But if the Kriegsmarine in 1942 decided not to send UBoats to the Indian Ocean in 1942 reflects upon your scenerio. YES or NO? To ignore the Kriegsmarine as a vital part in your scenerio means you are ignoring the very transportation your ELITE GERMAN TROOPS NEED for your scenerio to work. No one has said Australians are Supermen but I doubt very much that Brandenberg Elite Troops laden with tons of equipment without Kriegsmarine Uboats to convey them can swim 15,000 Sea Miles to Australia in 1942. WHAT PART OF THIS AREN'T YOU GETTING SOREN. YOU BASE SCENERIOS ON HISTORICAL EVENTS. THE HISTORICAL EVENTS FOR THE KRIEGSMARINE DOESN'T ADD UP TO YOUR SCENERIO. NO UBOATS FOR REASONS OF THE KRIEGSMARINE IN 1942 MEANS ONE THING. NO ATTACK AND YOUR SCENERIO IS NOW A NON EVENT
And what part of JUST BECAUSE THE KM DECIDED NOT SEND MASSES OF SUBS TO THE INDIAN OCEAN IN 42 DOESN'T IN ANY WAY MEAN THEY COULDN'T RUN PATROLS THERE dont you understand Emac44 ?
Remember this a hypothetical scenario of what could be done, and one thing is for certain, the KM boats could go to the Indian Ocean when'ever they wanted.
Your argument just simply doesn't hold any water Emac44, cause what you're suggesting is the same as saying "the man walked right so he couldn't have walked left if he had or wanted to". Seriously does that make any sense to you ??
As for Aussie1001, I definitely don't owe him any apology! If you look back clueless is what I've called him, I didn't follow his example and called him a moron, there's a HUGE difference!
Oh, and I never claimed that you Aussies didn't know yor back yard, ofcourse you do, but that doesn't mean the Germans don't know it either.
Soren I deal in factual not hypothetical. I can understand that you wish to examine a hypothetical area. But you are forgetting that even in hypothetical it has to match to reality at times and has to match to historical.
Now as for Aussie you both need to apologise to each other Soren for allowing yourselves to get overheated in this debate. And at no time did I refer to you as being STUPID. That you imagined yourself. I made the assumption that you was from the USA as I was certain I had seen a US Flag on your avtars and banners. How you got that I was referring to you as 1 Being Stupid and 2 Being a STUPID AMERICAN I have no idea. I don't insult people by their nationality Soren. Nor did I refer to you as a NAZI. I have no idea where you came up with that..
Fact is also that the Abwehr was never infiltrated. Now while Canaris was doing what he could to get rid of Hitler, supplying the Allies with information of Hitler's where'abouts and such (in a hope that he would be assassinated), Canaris NEVER supplied the Allies with any info on any operation of the Abwehr. All Canaris wanted was getting rid of Hitler, other than that he wanted to win the war just as much as any other German.
Also a fact is that the German naval code was unbroken from Feb 1942 till Dec 1942.
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(YES BUT WE WOULD BE IN OUR OWN COUNTRY THE GERMANS WOULDN'T BE)I deal with the facts Emac44, as knowing what DID happen is crucial if you want to know what COULD'VE happened, i.e. what was possible. (AND THE SCENERIO I PUT UP SOREN WAS POSSIBLE AS WELL. THERE ARE NO RIGHT OR WRONGS IN A SCENERIO BUT REMEMBER IN THE SCENERIO THERE IS COUNTERING PROBLEMS IN THE SCENERIO. THIS IS WHAT SOME OF US ARE TRYING TO SAY TO YOU SOREN)
What you need to understand Emac44, is that because the KM decided not to have masses of U-boats run patrols in the Indian Ocean in 42 has absolutely nothing to do with their ability to do this or transport stuff to, from or through the the Indian Ocean. In 44 the KM U-boats weren't running patrols along the US coast anymore, yet they still successfully transported landed agents on US soil. And that's fact Emac. (SOREN I AM NOT DOUBTING THAT THE KRIEGSMARINE TRANSPORTED AGENTS TO THE USA BY SUBMARINE. BUT BARING IN MIND ALSO THAT EVERY 1XD2 UBOAT SENT TO THE INDIAN OCEAN IN GRUPPE MONSUN WAS SUNK. THE VERY UBOAT TYPE YOU HAD ENVISIONED IN YOUR SCENERIO FOR 1942)
Fact is also that the Abwehr was never infiltrated. Now while Canaris was doing what he could to get rid of Hitler, supplying the Allies with information of Hitler's where'abouts and such (in a hope that he would be assassinated), Canaris NEVER supplied the Allies with any info on any operation of the Abwehr. All Canaris wanted was getting rid of Hitler, other than that he wanted to win the war just as much as any other German. (CANERIS BETRAYED GERMANY AS SUCH THE GOVERNMENT OF THE DAY. WHICH WAS THE NAZI PARTY. AND HIM BETRAYING ABWEHR CAN BE A DISTINCT POSSIBLITY AS WELL SOREN. JUST BETRAYING INFORMATION TO THE ALLIES NO MATTER HOW MUCH OR HOW LITTLE ETC IS STILL BETRAYING THE COUNTRY SOREN)
Also a fact is that the German naval code was unbroken from Feb 1942 till Dec 1942. (AH BUT THIS IS THE HYPOTHETICAL. THE POSSIBILITY THAT THE ENIGMA NAVAL CODES BEING REBROKEN AT DISTINCT POSSIBILITY)
As to yor points about areas of Australia being without detailed maps, well ofcourse it would be risky for the Germans to go to these far outskirts, but 1.) Why should they do that? What would be the purpose of doing such? 2.) You're forgetting that it would be equally risky for the Aussies to venture into these areas.