WW2 Aviation Mythbusters

FLYBOYJ · Dec 6, 2011

Siegfried said:
It certainly is impressive, is it a statistically exceptional for similar missions flown in similar circumstances in the same region (the MTO I think mainly?) by other groups? I haven't the resources or the inclination to do the analysis. IQ tests were extensively used in the selection process so if anything we can argue that IQ tests predictive values is at work yet again.

The problem here is that some people wish to demonstrate or mythologise some superhuman performance that will underline some social point. It just showed these men were willing and capable of loyally carrying out their duty. One can't realistically expect more given the complex circumstances. Notable is a suprising casualty rate these men paid.

Hollywood and politicians...

Trying to avoid getting political here!

davparlr · Dec 6, 2011

kettbo said:
Technically speaking, Belt armor defends against hits to the side of the ship.

IIRC, the Arizona Deck armor was sufficient for normal bombs from the Val. Thing was, the IJN modified some 14" naval projectiles for use by level-bombing Kates.
Remember, deck armor works against shells in the longer ranges of a ships calculated Immunity Zone. Shells would hit the deck at 35*-45* or so at the limits of their gunnery control. Entry angles could be greater at extreme ranges where chance of hit would be nil but penetration possible. The IJN calculated their modified shells striking at greater numeric angles (closer to vertical than normal gun trajectory means less armor to go through the closer to vertical to vertical) and determined that they could penetrate the deck armor.

I am not even sure they knew how it happened for a long time. It all occurred so fast and so violently. The rumor probably started when some big shot, or reporter, said, "how could that happen?" and the answer was "I don't know, a bomb must have went down the stack!" Not much was known about the ship until much later, maybe 1983 when a survey was done. They did not even know the No. 1 turret with guns was still on the ship.

If you ever get a chance, go to the memorial. It is a moving experience.

GrauGeist · Dec 6, 2011

Siegfried said:
I thought the rumour is that the japanese used these terms? I'd rather think that any japanese soldier using such defeatest demoralising language would be up for a little bit of discipline.

There are a number of rumors regarding the Japanese and "nicknames" for Allied aircraft (as seen in this thread)...

Knowing the strict disclipline of the Imperial Japanese Army Navy, I find it VERY unlikely that the Japanese would give such a impressive name to an enemy that suggests fear, loathing and thier own demise.

One of the few exceptions I have heard of, was from several American vets of the European theater, where from about Normandy onwards, would refer to any German tank they encountered as a "Tiger" because they were truly spooked and wary of the real deal, and took no chances.

renrich · Dec 6, 2011

I think a myth that might have been put to bed by "The Shattered Sword" was that the flight decks of the Japanese CVs when the SBDs from Yorktown and Enterprise began their dives were covered with planes beginning to be launched. I believe the truth was that they were below on the hangar decks being rearmed.

Edgar Brooks · Dec 6, 2011

GrauGeist said:
There are a number of rumors regarding the Japanese and "nicknames" for Allied aircraft (as seen in this thread)...
.

If you go back a page, you'll find that I've found the genuine origin of "Whispering Death." I knew that I had it somewhere.

model299 · Dec 6, 2011

renrich said:
I think a myth that might have been put to bed by "The Shattered Sword" was that the flight decks of the Japanese CVs when the SBDs from Yorktown and Enterprise began their dives were covered with planes beginning to be launched. I believe the truth was that they were below on the hangar decks being rearmed.

I've got that book, and you're right. IMHO, what excacerbated the whole deal for the IJN was that all servicing of aircraft was done below decks. They NEVER did that on the flight deck. The author stated it was because "That's the way the Combined Fleet did things." Because of that, after the initial hits, the hanger decks filled with avgas fumes due to broken fuel supply lines. Things reached a boiling point, and the rest, as they say, is history.

Njaco · Dec 6, 2011

The largest Tiger / Panther tank battle was Kursk.

GregP · Dec 7, 2011

The War Materiel Board ruined the P-39.

phas3e · Dec 7, 2011

The Corsair Whistles in a Dive for sure (it may be a Supercharger or something but its there), I heard it last January during a very impressive display at Masterton New Zealand by Keith Skilling.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooC9vilBjgI

varsity078740 · Dec 7, 2011

How about-Colin Kelly sank the Haruna. Some myths also say he crashed into it after his crew bailed out

michaelmaltby · Dec 7, 2011

"... The War Materiel Board ruined the P-39."

It did.

MM

renrich · Dec 7, 2011

Good call, varsity. Colin Kelly, in a B17 was supposed to have sunk the haruna which was not even in the area. In fact, there were no BBs present when that was supposed to have happened. It may have been a CL that was damaged, not sunk.

Readie · Dec 7, 2011

1) "The modifications required for carrier service make naval fighters inherently inferior to land-based fighters."

2) "The bomber will always get through."

3) "The Fairey Swordfish flew so slowly that naval anti-aircraft guns couldn't track it."

4) "The Polish air force was wiped out in the first two days of World War Two."

John

model299 · Dec 7, 2011

varsity078740 said:
How about-Colin Kelly sank the Haruna. Some myths also say he crashed into it after his crew bailed out

A related myth had Capt. Richard E. Fleming crashing into one of the aft turrets of the Mikuma during the Battle Of Miday. The last I saw it, an informational display at the South St Paul airfield named in his honor, Fleming Field, perpetuates this myth. Please do not misunderstand. His actions were no less heroic, and he fully deserved the posthumas Medal Of Honor he recieved. He just never crashed into the ship.

That's supposed to be the wreckage of his aircraft on the aft upper turret. Actually, it's probably what's left of the aft torpedo launcher that landed there.

tyrodtom · Dec 7, 2011

That # 3 on the Swordfish, I somewhat familiar with 70's AA, they may have a maximum slew rate, but they don't have a minimum. In other words the barrel can only be moved so fast, but slow movement of the barrels are no problem, and i'd bet WW2 naval AA is no different.
Now they might have a problem with how much to lead the target, seeing as how light AA in that era wasn't radar directed ( Was It ?) So if they crank in the lead for a target going 140 Kts. and it's only going 100, they're going to be shooting ahead of the aircraft .

iron man · Dec 7, 2011

riacrato said:
Tanks in Normandy being destroyed by heavy machine gun bullets ricochetting off the ground and penetrating the "soft underbelly".

To elaborate on this one...

The effectiveness of Allied tac air against hard armoured targets in general during the fighting in Western Europe.

See Niklas Zetterling: "Normandy: 1944" if you want it from the "horses mouth".

Total myth.
Against soft skinned/horse drawn columns, caught on a route march with little or no available cover? Devastating. See Falaise.

Against armoured vehicles (AFV's and SPW's) maneuvering on the field or in a similar route march situation?

The analysis referenced (and supported by German AAR's) in Zetterling speaks volumes.

Well worth reading.

parsifal · Dec 7, 2011

I admit i always thought that the predictors on the bismarck and Tirpitz had a minimum setting of 100 knots , but the Swordfish had a max speed of 80 knots when loaded. The Germans rectified this error in 1942.

I cannot confirm this as myth or not, but it is mentioned in Campbells book and I believe on the Nvaweapons site.

Denniss · Dec 7, 2011

More Bf 109 myths:
The Bf 109A was skipped and production started with the B-version
The Bf 109D was equipped with DB 600 engines
The Bf 109 F-4 was barely faster than the F-2
The Bf 109 G-6 reached only ~620 km/h top speed

fastmongrel · Dec 8, 2011

parsifal said:
I admit i always thought that the predictors on the bismarck and Tirpitz had a minimum setting of 100 knots , but the Swordfish had a max speed of 80 knots when loaded. The Germans rectified this error in 1942.

I cannot confirm this as myth or not, but it is mentioned in Campbells book and I believe on the Nvaweapons site.

I reckon this is a myth in the mid 30s when the Bismark was designed virtually every torpedo bomber was a relatively slow biplane and even the fastest monoplane torpedo bombers could only drop there fish at around 100 knots max because the torpedo wouldnt take the water entry shock of anything faster.

Maybe just maybe the Royal Navy knew what it was doing using biplanes in the North Atlantic and maybe just maybe the German gunners werent the supermen the internet would have us believe.

Readie · Dec 8, 2011

parsifal said:
I admit i always thought that the predictors on the bismarck and Tirpitz had a minimum setting of 100 knots , but the Swordfish had a max speed of 80 knots when loaded. The Germans rectified this error in 1942.

I cannot confirm this as myth or not, but it is mentioned in Campbells book and I believe on the Nvaweapons site.

"The Fairey Swordfish flew so slowly that naval anti-aircraft guns couldn't track it." -

ALL the attacking Swordfishes in the 'Channel Dash' incident were shot down, mostly by AA fire.

John

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