XP-39 and the Claims

[GrauGeist]

The Luftwaffe is not going to fly at low altitude just because some historian says the Eastern front was a low altitude war.

The airwar on the Eastern Front was focused on ground attack.
Since the Soviets moved their manufacturing beyond the Urals, there was no strategic bombing campaign like there was in the west.
Additionally, the Axis and Soviets were operating from foreward bases almost a stone's throw from one another - this is why combat altitudes rarely if ever exceeded 15,000 feet.

Think about it: if the enemy's positions were literally 15 minutes away, why would they need to climb any higher than nessecary?
Both sides were heavily involved in ground attack which involved tree-top altitudes with fighter cover roughly a few thousand feet above that - the defenders would be perhaps just a bit higher to both spot their adversary and have the height advantage.
So you have planes at maybe 150 feet, escorts at roughly 1-2 thousand and defenders at perhaps 3-4 thousand feet.

Bombers (both sides) would stay at heights just above mobile flak (only very strategic targets would have heavy flak replacements) and these altitudes would have been around 8-10,000 feet at best. Factor in their escorts being around or above and the defenders within a few thousand feet above.

The Eastern Front was a completely different type of war than existed in the West.

 

[GregP]

If you go read the history and reports, the Soviet Air Force ignored the high-flying Luftwaffe airplanes and sent in waves of low-altitude fighter and attack planes to decimate the German troops. So, the Luftwaffe had the choice of allowing their troops to be slaughtered or coming down to fight.

They chose to come down and fight rather than loose large numbers of troops, which they did anyway. In very cold weather, which was more often than not, the Soviet Air Force was flying while the Luftwaffe and other Allied Air Forces were grounded by simply not knowing how to operate in very cold weather. With the Soviets flying and the Luftwaffe not flying, the Soviets had a relatively easy time on very cold and bad weather days. The Germans could NOT allow them to just come in low and hit the troops, and that's why it was called a low-altitude war ... because that's where it was fought, down low.

It wasn't because the Luftwaffe planes couldn't fly high; they could. It was because they couldn't afford to ignore the Soviet low-altitude attacks on the German troops. You might remember that the Il-2/-10 was built VERY large numbers, and was very hard to shoot down from below due to very thick armor.

 

[P-39 Expert]

Ignoring enemy plains above you is the best way to become a statistic. Those planes had to be countered or your whole group could be lost.

 

[tyrodtom]

Ignoring enemy plains above you is the best way to become a statistic. Those planes had to be countered or your whole group could be lost.

Everybody already knows that.
What's your point ?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Ignoring enemy plains above you is the best way to become a statistic. Those planes had to be countered or your whole group could be lost.

Oh, those vast green plains above, full of Buffallo grazing.

 

[SaparotRob]

I think the VVS pilots were more afraid of their squadron political officers back at the airfield than those FW-190's circling above.

 

[GregP]

They didn't completely ignore the high-flying Luftwaffe planes, they flew below them and attacked troops so the high fliers had to come down and fight or watch their troops get massacred. Once the Germans came down, they were in the Soviet best-performance altitude range and the fighters were more to the liking of the Soviet pilots.

Of course, all this was after the early Soviet defeats with obsolete aircraft that resulted in huge initial Luftwaffe scores. Once the Yak-3s and La-5s showed up, Russian air war was a different story than it was before the Soviet got better equipment. The Yak-9s and La-7s/9s were good airplanes, and Soviet tactics had morfed into a much better fighting force.

The air war on the Russian Front in late 1943 - early 1944 and beyond was a very different situation than it was in June 1941 when Operation Barbarossa began.

 

[pbehn]

The eastern front was huge, I believe it is a mistake to thing everything was focussed just on the line that made that front. The PE-2 was used on raids on Ploesti oil facilities, I presume they didn't travel at 50ft to and from the target. The German military had many targets to attack behind their lines. The Russians took over 1000 Spitfire Mk XVI ( packard engined Mk IXs) whick performed best at altitudes above those where the P-39 was best at.

 

[Milosh]

Most of the ~1200 Spitfire's delivered to the Soviet Union were used by the air defense forces (the PVO).

 

[SaparotRob]

Is the PVO part of or the same as VVS?

 

[Dimlee]

Is the PVO part of or the same as VVS?

Separate branch with a different line of command.

 

[Dimlee]

If you go read the history and reports, the Soviet Air Force ignored the high-flying Luftwaffe airplanes and sent in waves of low-altitude fighter and attack planes to decimate the German troops. So, the Luftwaffe had the choice of allowing their troops to be slaughtered or coming down to fight.

They chose to come down and fight rather than loose large numbers of troops, which they did anyway. In very cold weather, which was more often than not, the Soviet Air Force was flying while the Luftwaffe and other Allied Air Forces were grounded by simply not knowing how to operate in very cold weather. With the Soviets flying and the Luftwaffe not flying, the Soviets had a relatively easy time on very cold and bad weather days. The Germans could NOT allow them to just come in low and hit the troops, and that's why it was called a low-altitude war ... because that's where it was fought, down low.

It wasn't because the Luftwaffe planes couldn't fly high; they could. It was because they couldn't afford to ignore the Soviet low-altitude attacks on the German troops. You might remember that the Il-2/-10 was built VERY large numbers, and was very hard to shoot down from below due to very thick armor.

A bit more complicated.
Weather - VVS overall was poorly trained for all-weather operations. So there was no real advantage over LW. Low temperatures affected both sides but Soviets, indeed, were more inventive in keeping engines running with simple if not primitive equipment.
Kuban Stairs formation and tactics mentioned above were used against LW bombers and later in the war (when Geman bombers disappeared) against fighters in order to obtain local air dominance. It could help friendly bombers in the area, but it was not an escort itself.

 

[pbehn]

A bit more complicated.
Weather - VVS overall was poorly trained for all-weather operations. So there was no real advantage over LW. Low temperatures affected both sides but Soviets, indeed, were more inventive in keeping engines running with simple if not primitive equipment.
Kuban Stairs formation and tactics mentioned above were used against LW bombers and later in the war (when Geman bombers disappeared) against fighters in order to obtain local air dominance. It could help friendly bombers in the area, but it was not an escort itself.

Did the VVS routinely attack targets behind the front line at altitudes above ground level?

 

[Dimlee]

Did the VVS routinely attack targets behind the front line at altitudes above ground level?

I think it became a routine later in the war when air superiority was gained. The so-called "free hunt" became a trademark of some units. There were, of course, some operations in the earlier period as well, as attacks against german transport flights to/from Stalingrad. Pe-3s attempted to hunt German bombers near their bases during the Battle of Moscow.

 

[SaparotRob]

Did the VVS routinely attack targets behind the front line at altitudes above ground level?

I'm not sure what you wrote is what you meant but if you did,

 

[P-39 Expert]

They didn't completely ignore the high-flying Luftwaffe planes, they flew below them and attacked troops so the high fliers had to come down and fight or watch their troops get massacred. Once the Germans came down, they were in the Soviet best-performance altitude range and the fighters were more to the liking of the Soviet pilots. This was suicide. Inviting the Luftwaffe to bounce you until your unit was destroyed.

Of course, all this was after the early Soviet defeats with obsolete aircraft that resulted in huge initial Luftwaffe scores. Once the Yak-3s and La-5s showed up, Russian air war was a different story than it was before the Soviet got better equipment. The Yak-9s and La-7s/9s were good airplanes, and Soviet tactics had morfed into a much better fighting force.

The air war on the Russian Front in late 1943 - early 1944 and beyond was a very different situation than it was in June 1941 when Operation Barbarossa began.

 

[tyrodtom]

The use of high cover might have surprised the Luftwaffe the first time it was used, because they had little respect for the soviet's tactical thinking.

But after that do you think they wouldn't send it some aircraft at higher altitude to keep the high cover busy while other aircraft took care of the ground attack aircraft?

It's a simple concept, both sides were using high cover aircraft to cover other aircraft doing ground attack in late WW1, so the counter to that wasn't rocket science.

You seem to think people lose the ability to think when they're fighting a war.

 

[GregP]

Maybe you should read on Soviet tactics during the German invasion. Not "P-39 tactics," but general Soviet tactics. They attacked German troops with a combination of attack aircraft and fighters and bombers until the German pilots were forced to come down and fight at low altitude.

It isn't my opinion, it's recorded history. If you don't recognize it as a good tactic, that's fine. It doesn't change the fact that it happened.

 

[glennasher]

It seems we've gone from P-39 groundhogs to P-39 clams now. I gotta go, I've never liked seafood. Wow, this place has zero rails.....................................................................

 

[Peter Gunn]

Not me, I love seafood, in fact the wife and daughters and I are headed to Joe's Crabshack here on Gulf to Bay Blvd. tonight for dinner.


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That's now what you meant? Sorry, I'll be leaving now.