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I simply posted the content of a document propagated by Generalkommando I Fliegerkorps. I've given a reference,if you want to check the translation feel free. It is dated 24 July 1940 and makes a specific reference to "ruthless retaliatory terror raids on British cities". I think the translation is by the Air Historical Branch but I am not absolutely sure.
The word "retaliatory" is included. I neither edit my references nor selectively quote to suit any particular point of view. If I remember correctly the invasion of Poland was itself a "retaliation" for some imagined Polish agression.
*SNIP lenghty irrelevancy excuse for documents shown not supporting conclusion*
The expression "terror raid" in direct reference to British cities was in use at a Luftwaffe headquarters in July 1940,sometime before the RAF targeted any German city.
It is clear that this sort of bombing was being considered as part of the strategy for the attack on Britain from,at the very least,mid 1940.
Looking at the numbers you have above and the earlier numbers you posted, refining crude was a fraction of overall British fuel supplies.
Disrupting the ports and oil stations makes it harder and harder to bring the fuel in. Knocking out the biggest and most important stations forces the British to use far smaller and less efficient stations to discharge fuel from tankers.
Did Port Talbot have an oil station to unload tankers?
Just like Würzburg. It had limited utility and just plugged the gaps that the main radar deployed at the time had. What was its accuracy compared to Freya or Würzburg and how many units were available?
Thats the nature of the British people that so infuriates the nordics. We are a bit illogical when it comes to exposing liars and bullies
Indeed you are. Britain did declare war on Germany for attacking Poland. Yet Britain did not declare war on Soviet Union, when they also attacked Poland (September 17, 1939), or when they invaded and enslaved Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania...wait, the list gets too long.
Indeed you are. Britain did declare war on Germany for attacking Poland. Yet Britain did not declare war on Soviet Union, when they also attacked Poland (September 17, 1939), or when they invaded and enslaved Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania...wait, the list gets too long.
... until May 1940, when situation on the ground become so critical that they wanted to bait the German air force into a bombing war of each others cities by provocative attacks on German towns - which, given bad situation was seen as better alternative then Luftwaffe bombers giving effectice support to Heer in Low Countries...
For practical purposes of this discussion, it is enough to fix that Luftwaffe standing orders ruled out terror attacks apart for retaliation. Attack on industry and supply was preferred method, much like USAAF doctrine.
No they were not, you misinterpret the document. The wording is very clear that 'this sort of bombing' was only being considered as a reaction, should the British initiate such attack first (which they did, at least in German perception, for months already).
Any source to back up that claim? In fact the attacks were restricted against communication targets west of Rhein before 15 May 40 and changed only after the bombing of Rotterdam after which BC was allowed to attack German industrial targets. So from from 10/11 May (road and rail communications at Mönchengladbach) to 14/15 May (communications Mönchengladbach, Breda and Roosendaal) and then on 15/16 May Ruhr industry and railways then oil and railway targets in Western Germany to the end of May, didn't bother to look farther, only exceptions were attacks against battlefield targets in Belgium and NW France.
TO BE KEPT UNDER LOCK AND KEY.
MOST SECRET W.
M-(S9) 47th CONCLUSIONS. MINUTE 4.
Confidential Annex.
AIR POLICY, THE MINISTER FOR CO-DRDTNA^ION OP DEFENCE said that the Conference arranged in accordance with the (Previous Reference: War Cabinet Conclusion referred to in the margin.
W.M.(39) 46th
Conclusions, had arrived at the following, conclusions in connec Minute 2,) tion with the policy which should govern the employment of the Royal Air Force in the immediate future.
The governing fa.ctors might be summarised as follows
a) The Allies were in a position of inferiority vis-a-vis Germany inexisting air strengths. From this it follows that for the present the initiative was with Germany: our action must be conditioned by her action. It also followed that, so far as enemy action permitted, we should conserve and develop our resources until the gap in numerical strength was narrowed. In particular, we should not fritter away our striking force on unprofitable objectives in deference to public clamour for retaliation or public criticism at inaction.
(b) On the other hand, we must not shrink from using the whole of our air strength if enemy action against either France or ourselves looked like being decisive; for example, an attack on our Mercantile Marine, on the scale of 1917: in that event, our striking force must, at all costs, be employed in the manner that held out the best hope of obtaining decisive results against Germany,
c) Germany's weakest spot was the Ruhr, the heart of which was about the size of Greater London, anr1 in which was concentrated approximately 60 per cent, of Germany's vital industry. It contained moreover, a population which might be expected to crack under extensive air attack. Such attacks would involve a heavy casualty roll among civilians, including women and children.
(d) We should not be the first to "take the gloves off". Prom this it followed that until and unless Germany, either by killing large numbers of civilians or by a violation of Belgium, gave the necessary justification,there could be no question of attacking the Ruhr, or anything other than strictly military objectives If the War Cabinet approved these conclusions, the Committee proposed that the governing principles should be applied to the situation with which we were now confronted, in the following way:
i) If the enemy confined his attack either on the French or ouselves to strictly military objectives, we should reply by strictly limited attacks on corresponding German objectives, i.e., we should continue our present bombardment policy.
(ii) If the enemy attacked convoys or even our Fast (joast ports indecisively, i,e,,if they were not doing vital damage — we should, still not do anything to invite retaliation which might do us vital damage.
It would, however', probably be necessary, both on military and political grounds, to take some "token" action in reply. For example, an attack on Hamburg Oil Storage and. Refinery would, be a useful, spectacular and appropriate reply to a German attack on "East Coast ports or London Docks.
(iii) If the Germans should deliver an attack on either France or ourselves which looked like being decisive and had involved either appreciable casualties to civilians outside the battle zone (i.e., anywhere in England or in the back areas in France) or a violation of Belgian neutrality, we should attack the Ruhr as our first and chief objective. In the event of an attack on France through Belgium, our air forces, in addition to attacking the Ruhr, should operate against any favourable military targets presented by the German advance.
Action under (i) was within the existing policy approved by the War Cabinet. Action under (ii).and particularly (iii), would not have to be taken at a moment's notice, and, in the view of the Committee, should not be undertaken without the approval of the War Cabinet.
THE PRIME MINISTER observed that an attack on the Ruhr, in consequence of Germany violating Belgian neutrality, would be a departure from our previous ideas.
THE MINISTER FOR CO-ORDINATION OP DEFENCE said that the Committee had taken the view that an attack on Belgium would be an act which would involve tremendous suffering in Belgium amongst the civil population, and we should be amply justified in hitting Germany as hard, as we could.
THE PRIME MINISTER asked whether the same argument did not apply to Luxembourg and Holland.
THE SECRETARY OP STATE FOR ATR said, that Belgium had been considered a special case. An advance through Luxembourg would meet with no opposition, as there were no defences. An advance into Holland would no doubt be rapidly succeeded by an attack on Belgium.
THE SECRETARY OP STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS while not pre-judging the issue, asked whether there was not a wide distinction between a violation of Belgian neutrality and an attack on the Ruhr, which would result in heavy civilian casualties. In the latter case would, there not be a grave danger of an accusation that we were the first to "take the gloves off"?
THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY said that he thought the violation of Belgium would afford a moral justification for our bombing the Ruhr, even if this involved civilian casualties. The idea of causing civilian casualties among the German population of the Ruhr was to him less shocking than the civilian casualties which the Belgians would incur if we bombed, the German Army while it was moving through Belgium.
THE SECRETARY OP STATE FOR ATR pointed out that, in order to invade Belgium, the German Army would have to pass through the Ruhr, which would therefore become a military concentration area. (yeah, right)
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL felt that a decision on the matter should not be taken until the time came. An indiscriminate attack on the Ruhr, in reply to a violation of Belgian neutrality, would be a departure from the policy (which we were at present pursuing) of meeting like with like.
THE SECRETARY OP STATE FOR ATR pointed out that an attack by our Air Force on the Ruhr would be by no means indiscriminate, Attacks would be carried out in daylight against military objectives. It was inevitable, however, that, heavy civilian casualties would be caused. A point which the War Cabinet would have to bear in mind, was the probable loss sustained by our attacking formations, which might conceivably be as heavy as 50 per cent.
THE MINISTER WPTTOPT PORTFOLIO said that the Committee had felt that attack on the Ruhr was the only operation of a decisive character to relieve the pressure on Belgium. There was general agreement, that an attack on
the Ruhr would, have a very big moral, as well as military, effect. In the course of discussion it was pointed out that the Belgian Ambassador had been confident that the Belgian defences would, hold up a German advance
at least for a time.
THE CHIEF OF mHE AIR STAFF said that, in the view of the Chiefs of Sta.ff, Belgium could, only impose a certain delay on the German advance.
Tt was agreed that, while it was desirable to have preliminary discussion on this matter, there wa.s no need for the War Cabinet to reach a final decision that day as to the use of our Bomber Force in the circumstances envisaged.
The War Cabinet —
(i) Approved the conclusions summarised in (a), (b), ( c) and (d) above:
(ii) Took note of the proposed courses
of action set out in ( i) , (ii) and
( iii) above.
Richmond Terrace, S.W.1,
14th October, 1939.
What was the reason of bombing St. Helier, Jersey and St Peter Port, Guernsey on June 28 1940? Altogether 44 civilians died in that day.
I'm not endorsing these opinions, but I've seen it argued this way:Boog can be strident in his opinions. On 1st September 1939 1,200 civilians died under the 46 tons of bombs dropped on Wielun in Poland. The germans had detected a Polish cavalry brigade and an infantry division in the area. Boog is adamant that these were the target and yet the centre of the town was destroyed. British aviation historian Peter Smith,a big fan of dive bombing,describes this as "collateral damage" and blames fog for the inaccurate bombing.
It is no coincidence that some of the Luftwaffe officers involved had not only served with the Legion Condor but been directly involved in the bombing of Guernica (incidentally how would you characterise that raid?)
I've also see this one argued: Warsaw was a fortified military objective defended by military forces, so therefore was a military target. In the view of the Germans the Poles were using their civilians as shields because they were hiding in the city among them, rather than 'fighting in the field'. The 25th raid was to convince the Polish to surrender.You might explain away the Luftwaffe raids on Warsaw on 1/8/and 13th of September,particularly those carried out by Ju 87s. The massive attack of 25th September was a terror raid by any measure.
Yes, the Germans did start the war. Legally speaking it is debatable whether they intentionally started violating the prohibition against targeting civilians first, though the actions in Poland are pretty damning. Even if not ordered from on high the Luftwaffe did strafe columns of civilians and bomb villages whether or not their were confirmed military targets there. Ultimately responsibility for these acts lie with the regime, which was tried and judged at Nuremberg for their crimes.This is a rather futile discussion about who did what first. Germany was the agressor in WW2. Basil Fawlty,an emminent historian and collector of Moose heads was correct when he said "you started it!"
Cheers
Steve
Note the date - 14th October, 1939 - since stona is amused by the world 'retaliation', for the historical record we should note how soon the British War cabinet was flirting with such idea.
c) Germany's weakest spot was the Ruhr, the heart of which was about the size of Greater London, anr1 in which was concentrated approximately 60 per cent, of Germany's vital industry. It contained moreover, a population which might be expected to crack under extensive air attack. Such attacks would involve a heavy casualty roll among civilians, including women and children.
(d) We should not be the first to "take the gloves off". Prom this it followed that until and unless Germany, either by killing large numbers of civilians or by a violation of Belgium, gave the necessary justification,there could be no question of attacking the Ruhr, or anything other than strictly military objectives If the War Cabinet approved these conclusions, the Committee proposed that the governing principles should be applied to the situation with which we were now confronted, in the following way:
i) If the enemy confined his attack either on the French or ouselves to strictly military objectives, we should reply by strictly limited attacks on corresponding German objectives, i.e., we should continue our present bombardment policy.
(ii) If the enemy attacked convoys or even our Fast (joast ports indecisively, i,e,,if they were not doing vital damage — we should, still not do anything to invite retaliation which might do us vital damage.
It would, however', probably be necessary, both on military and political grounds, to take some "token" action in reply. For example, an attack on Hamburg Oil Storage and. Refinery would, be a useful, spectacular and appropriate reply to a German attack on "East Coast ports or London Docks.
(iii) If the Germans should deliver an attack on either France or ourselves which looked like being decisive and had involved either appreciable casualties to civilians outside the battle zone (i.e., anywhere in England or in the back areas in France) or a violation of Belgian neutrality, we should attack the Ruhr as our first and chief objective. In the event of an attack on France through Belgium, our air forces, in addition to attacking the Ruhr, should operate against any favourable military targets presented by the German advance.
Tt was agreed that, while it was desirable to have preliminary discussion on this matter, there wa.s no need for the War Cabinet to reach a final decision that day as to the use of our Bomber Force in the circumstances envisaged.
The War Cabinet —
(i) Approved the conclusions summarised in (a), (b), ( c) and (d) above:
(ii) Took note of the proposed courses
of action set out in ( i) , (ii) and
( iii) above.
when situation on the ground become so critical that they wanted to bait the German air force into a bombing war of each others cities by provocative attacks on German towns
To authorise the Chief of the Air
Staff to order Bomber Command to
carry out attacks on suitable
military objectives, (including
marshalling yards and oil refineries)
in the Ruhr as well as elsewhere in
Germany; and that these attacks
should begin that night with
approximately 100 heavy bombers.
Boog can be strident in his opinions.
On 1st September 1939 1,200 civilians died under the 46 tons of bombs dropped on Wielun in Poland.
The germans had detected a Polish cavalry brigade and an infantry division in the area. Boog is adamant that these were the target and yet the centre of the town was destroyed. British aviation historian Peter Smith,a big fan of dive bombing,describes this as "collateral damage" and blames fog for the inaccurate bombing.
It is no coincidence that some of the Luftwaffe officers involved had not only served with the Legion Condor but been directly involved in the bombing of Guernica
(incidentally how would you characterise that raid?)
You might explain away the Luftwaffe raids on Warsaw on 1/8/and 13th of September,particularly those carried out by Ju 87s.
The massive attack of 25th September was a terror raid by any measure.
This is a rather futile discussion about who did what first.
Germany was the agressor in WW2. Basil Fawlty,an emminent historian and collector of Moose heads was correct when he said "you started it!"