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- #561
Germany had too many dummkopfs running it...
Vast expenditure on "secret weapons" (including the Me 262) that arguably cost Germany much more than it did in terms of damage to the enemy...
Zyzygie’s Mumbles and Rambles
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Germany had too many dummkopfs running it...
Vast expenditure on "secret weapons" (including the Me 262) that arguably cost Germany much more than it did in terms of damage to the enemy...
It's nothing to be proud of. He is right about everything he said.
Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
"It wasn't until early 1953, after F-86 Sabres had been on the scene, that the United States achieved complete air superiority. "
Uh... what?
Methinks the ex-nazi got his dates and info wrong, shocking.
Uh... what?
Methinks the ex-nazi got his dates and info wrong, shocking.
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- #564
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- #565
Magadan... It would be a really "unorthodox" decision to build a jet engine factory in Magadan. Imagine if the engines of those Meteors are delivered to the UK from St.Helena Island.
Locations in USSR where RD-45 were produced: Moscow, Perm, Samara, Ufa, Zaporozhye, Kazan.
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- #567
An interesting introduction to some admirable German WW II aircraft design developments:
All they needed to get them to work was a good engine or two...
https://www.howfliesthealbatross.com/German Jets.pdf
germany's secret weapons in world war ii - osprey
All they needed to get them to work was a good engine or two...
https://www.howfliesthealbatross.com/German Jets.pdf
germany's secret weapons in world war ii - osprey
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Help please - Where does Kay say this?
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- #569
A proposed 1946 Gloster Meteor development with swept wings - The Gloster P 228 night fighter.
Gloster P.228 | World of Warplanes
Gloster P.228 | World of Warplanes
Attachments
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- #570
Make that climb rate 3500 ft/minute, not second...
"...The P-47M was, essentially, developed collaterally with the XP-47J. The "J" was fitted with a high-output version of the P&W R-2800. Specifically, the R-2800-57. This engine made 2,800 hp @ 2,800 rpm at 35,000 feet. This is in War Emergency Power. The aircraft actually attained 507 mph at an altitude of 34,300 feet. 2,800 hp is 133% of rated power. At military power (100%), the XP-47J could sustain 470 mph. 435 mph was attained at 81% of its rated power (1,700 hp). All performance figures were obtained at 34,300 feet. The "J" model was an especially good climbing fighter too. It had a climb rate at sea level of 4,900 fpm. At 20,000 feet, it was still rocketing up at 4,400 fpm, and got there in 4 minutes, 15 seconds. Time to 30,000 feet was only 6 minutes, 45 seconds. Now that's an interceptor! Yet it had a usable range of 1,075 miles. Rather impressive, don't you think? No, this was not a stripped-down hotrod. It was fully armed and carried ballast in the wings equal to 267 rds per gun. The aircraft was flown to a height of 46,500 feet and was capable of a bit more."
The XP-47J
"Originally designed to defeat the FW-190 series fighters, the XP-47J certainly would have exceeded this requirement. In point of fact, with its critical Mach of .83, it had the potential to chase down Me-262's by utilizing a shallow dive, taking advantage of its superior service ceiling..."
The Republic P-47M -Tje Fastest Piston Engine Fighter In WW II
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- Thread starter
- #571
Wel, this went into the fubar zone, it started with a simple aircraft duel and it ended with UsaAF47, Korea War, Material engeneering and Political opinions.
All too far from the 262...
Even if there is good stuff about the Metal engeneering, most of the stuff is OT and looks like a crusade against the 262, loosing all the credibility.
So just to get back to the initial past: 262 vs Meteor MkIII
Acceleration: Me262
Speed : Me262
Maneuvrability:Me262
Firepower (Raw Power): Me262
Ergonomics: Me262
As a Combat airframe, the 262 was ready to fulfill it's role in44/45.
the Meteor wasn't even able to do it in 46 with updated engines..
A very interesting video here:
A whole lot of holes in this guy's understanding.
On the other hand, an impartial NASA assessment:
"...Performance characteristics shown in table I give a maximum speed for the Gloster Meteor F. Mk. 4 of 570 miles per hour, or a Mach number of 0.81, at 20000 feet... The sea-level rate of climb was 7500 feet per minute, and an altitude of 30 000 feet could be reached in 5 minutes. Clearly, the performance of the Meteor F. Mk. 4 was much superior to the performance of the Messerschmitt Me 262A for which data are given in table V. To put this comparison in proper perspective, however, the Meteor F. Mk. 4 did not fly until after the end of World War II and had a thrust-to-weight ratio of 0.47 as compared with 0.28 for the earlier German aircraft. The author's analysis of the physical and performance characteristics of the two aircraft suggests that the superior performance of the Meteor was due to the higher thrust of its engines and not to any inherent superiority in aerodynamic design. The first flight of the Gloster Meteor took place in March 1943, and development and refinement of the type continued for a number of years following World War II. Over 3500 Meteors were built, including versions intended to perform almost every role a fighter might be called upon to fill. For many years, it was used by the Royal Air Force, as well as by the armed forces of 15 other nations..."
"...It saw further combat in the Korean war. Although a strictly subsonic aircraft, the Meteor did have high performance for a straight-wing fighter; it was rugged, versatile, and capable of being readily adapted to various missions..."
ch11-2
The Meteor was very competitive with the MiG 15 below 20,000 ft. The Me 262 would have been eaten for breakfast...
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- #572
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- #573
Eric Brown on the Me 262 as dogfighter:
******
On the need for airbrakes:
*******
On engine reliability:
https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/research/RAF-Historical-Society-Journals/Journal-53.pdf
******
On the need for airbrakes:
*******
On engine reliability:
https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/research/RAF-Historical-Society-Journals/Journal-53.pdf
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GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
This was a good thread before it was hijacked...
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- #575
"...The introduction of the MiG challenged American superiority over Korea and drastically outclassed their American equivalent, leading to communist air superiority as far south as Sinanji and along the Chongechan river, resulting in superiority of the skies being contested for the remainder of the war..."
"...American air superiority was challenged but not defeated. The superiority of the MiGs in combat surprised American officials who believed that Soviet and Chinese planes were inferior because as suggested at the Wake Island Conference "We [America] are the best." The superiority of the MiGs compared to its early counter parts such as the Shooting Star led to this challenge in American air superiority. However despite the introduction of the MiG into the Korean theatre of war, and the chronic shortage of warplanes that faced American forces the USAF was able to maintain superiority over the Korean peninsula throughout the war thus enabling American bombers to conduct their missions. However the issue of political sanctuary that the communist air forces enjoyed and the increasing presence of MiG fighters meant that even if the USAF wanted air superiority over Manchuria they would have been unlikely to achieve it..."
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Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
Not sure what you're driving at, the ex-nazi got his date's way of whack, Sabre's were there well before 1953 and had wrested control of the air well before that date also. I'm not sure if you have a beef with historical facts or not, I was merely pointing out the guy's historical inaccuracies.
Hi Guys,
The quote about Sabres and 1953 didn't come from the ex-Nazi, it came from a writer for Air & Space Smithsonian back in 2000. I suspect he was trying to say that the Americans achieved air supremacy in early 1953 because of newer models of the Sabre - either way, it was a poorly written sentence.
I also loved his line about the Soviets offering jobs to all those unemployed German scientists and engineers - he made it sound more like a jobs program than virtual Soviet-style enslavement!
Cheers,
Dana
The quote about Sabres and 1953 didn't come from the ex-Nazi, it came from a writer for Air & Space Smithsonian back in 2000. I suspect he was trying to say that the Americans achieved air supremacy in early 1953 because of newer models of the Sabre - either way, it was a poorly written sentence.
I also loved his line about the Soviets offering jobs to all those unemployed German scientists and engineers - he made it sound more like a jobs program than virtual Soviet-style enslavement!
Cheers,
Dana
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- Thread starter
- #578
Yes. Arguably, "complete air superiority" = "air supremacy."
Before 1953, air superiority was "contested," and arguably localised - for instance "MiG alley," in which the contest was highly dependent on Soviet radar ground controllers and superior MiG numbers.
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Yup, wasn't this originally titled Meteor versus Me 262? Didn't realise we could change the titles of threads and summarily overtake them in this manner.
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