Tony Hill
Tech Sergeant
Wonderful work on that firewall!
1:32 scale Lancaster Mk.1 Hachette Partworks
- Thread starter Gerry
- Start date
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- Thread starter
- #1,002
Gerry
Staff Sergeant
Thanks Andy. Good to know you're still looking in on the build. Without putting you under any pressure and only if you're going to be at Nanton anyway, any detail photos of the engines, particularly the plumbing and cable runs would be most welcome. I have some already but few where I can see both start and finish of the runs. I appreciate that if the engine is out, the pipes may be already disconnected but if there was a chance, at some stage, of a shot of the connected engine before the cowlings are refitted, that would be ideal. I'm particularly interested in some shots of the top of the engine showing the plumbing between the rocker heads. I'm assuming that this is a Mk. X with RR Packard engines? While these will have some difference from the Merlins, I'm sure they'll be very useful for guidance.
Thanks again to everyone for looking in and continuing to post your encouraging messages.
Slainte,
Gerry
turbo
Staff Sergeant
Top work Gerry, really impressive.
Crimea_River
Marshal
No problem at all Gerry as I'm at the museum pretty much every Saturday. I'll take some shots of the engine that is removed (yes, it's a Packard Merlin 224) and its matching firewall. I MAY be able to get some shots of an installed unit but can not guarantee that. In the meantime, here's one I took of #2 a couple of years ago for what it's worth. I know you're looking more for the connections in behind the engine and will try to get some of those.
Crimea_River
Marshal
Also, here's a shot of the top of the Merlin 29 (also a Packard) that's going into our Hurricane. Gives you an idea of what the plumbing looks like up there.
In this pic, the prop is to the right. The coolant headers are the large pipes running just inboard of the valve covers and, in the case of the Hurricane, connect to a header tank BEHIND the engine. On the Lanc, these are reversed and connect to the header tank over the gearbox in front. The headers are actually reversible, somewhat surprisingly.
Inboard of these you can see some very small tubes. These connect to the primer pump and inject fuel straight into the intake manifolds. Running down the center is the ignition harness for the intake side spark plugs. This is a single unit - I think later Merlins had two - and should be representative of a typical Lanc engine.
In this pic, the prop is to the right. The coolant headers are the large pipes running just inboard of the valve covers and, in the case of the Hurricane, connect to a header tank BEHIND the engine. On the Lanc, these are reversed and connect to the header tank over the gearbox in front. The headers are actually reversible, somewhat surprisingly.
Inboard of these you can see some very small tubes. These connect to the primer pump and inject fuel straight into the intake manifolds. Running down the center is the ignition harness for the intake side spark plugs. This is a single unit - I think later Merlins had two - and should be representative of a typical Lanc engine.
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vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
Man, great pics!
fubar57
General
Sweet!!!
Robert Porter
Senior Master Sergeant
Every time I see the attachments and bracing for an aircraft engine I am convinced it can't possibly work. It looks so flimsy compared to the engine it holds.
Crimea_River
Marshal
The engine is comparatively light, being cast aluminum. I think it weighs around 1700 lbs fully assembled, give or take.
Anyway Gerry, here's the first of a series of posts with lots of pics. I've reduced their resolution for posting but if you'd like any or all in the original resolution of 5312 x 2988 let me know and I'll find a way to get them to you. I should caution you here that the guys at the museum did not necessarily "restore" this machine to original condition but modified or added modern components in some cases to keep the engines and mechanical systems running for public viewing.
So the story is that the #1 engine is still separate from its firewall so I could not get pics of the connections. However, I took detailed pics of the firewall as well as the back of the engine in hopes that maybe you can match up where some of the electrical connections and pipes go. Failing that, I do have the parts manual for the Lanc Mk X so might be able to help if there's a question.
Fortunately, #3 had the lower cowls off, but not the side and uppers so I was able to should up the firewall from underneath. It won't give you everything but it's the best I could do for now without removing the cowls myself, something I didn't want to risk.
Let's start with the firewall for the detached #1 engine (port outer):
Looking outboard:
Looking inboard:
And looking head on.
In the below pic, the black pipe at the very top that's protruding into space is part of the engine vent system. I'll talk about that some more in the next post.
Anyway Gerry, here's the first of a series of posts with lots of pics. I've reduced their resolution for posting but if you'd like any or all in the original resolution of 5312 x 2988 let me know and I'll find a way to get them to you. I should caution you here that the guys at the museum did not necessarily "restore" this machine to original condition but modified or added modern components in some cases to keep the engines and mechanical systems running for public viewing.
So the story is that the #1 engine is still separate from its firewall so I could not get pics of the connections. However, I took detailed pics of the firewall as well as the back of the engine in hopes that maybe you can match up where some of the electrical connections and pipes go. Failing that, I do have the parts manual for the Lanc Mk X so might be able to help if there's a question.
Fortunately, #3 had the lower cowls off, but not the side and uppers so I was able to should up the firewall from underneath. It won't give you everything but it's the best I could do for now without removing the cowls myself, something I didn't want to risk.
Let's start with the firewall for the detached #1 engine (port outer):
Looking outboard:
Looking inboard:
And looking head on.
In the below pic, the black pipe at the very top that's protruding into space is part of the engine vent system. I'll talk about that some more in the next post.
Crimea_River
Marshal
So here are pics of the matching #1 engine:
Here's the top of the engine with forward to the left. Now I misled you a bit with my Merlin 29 pic above in that I did not realize that later models of the Merlin, like this 224, had a vent system installed that connected to the top of the rocker covers. The wire harness down the center is not original as I'd expect the ignition wires to be within a metal sheath.
The forward vent piping connects to the top of the gear box and then splits to both rocker covers. The rear pipe, after the Y, connects to that black pipe I mentioned in the previous post. Note also the absence of the coolant pipes that I showed you on the 29. With the header tank on the Lanc Merlin up front, the connection to the cylinder head is a short elbow straight back and down from the header tank.
Now, there's a difference in the plumbing of the outer and inner engines in this regard. I understand that the vent piping on the outer engines is discharged into the nacelles behind the firewall (via that black pipe) and out to atmosphere. On the inner engines, the vent pipe, rather than routing through the firewall, bends downward in front of the firewall and connects to a small tank at the bottom of the firewall. This is so that any oil discharged out of this system doesn't foul the tires and landing gear. More on that in the next post.
This pic shows the back of the engine but the supercharger scroll case and its connection to the inlet manifold have been removed
Piping running down the inboard engine mounts:
View from the back. The silver cylinder is the starter motor. The black
The piping on the outboard side is shown below. The silver unit seen between the engine mounts is the fuel pump. The black hose connected to it is also sen in the above pic and, I think, is the main feed from the fuel tanks.
Here's the top of the engine with forward to the left. Now I misled you a bit with my Merlin 29 pic above in that I did not realize that later models of the Merlin, like this 224, had a vent system installed that connected to the top of the rocker covers. The wire harness down the center is not original as I'd expect the ignition wires to be within a metal sheath.
The forward vent piping connects to the top of the gear box and then splits to both rocker covers. The rear pipe, after the Y, connects to that black pipe I mentioned in the previous post. Note also the absence of the coolant pipes that I showed you on the 29. With the header tank on the Lanc Merlin up front, the connection to the cylinder head is a short elbow straight back and down from the header tank.
Now, there's a difference in the plumbing of the outer and inner engines in this regard. I understand that the vent piping on the outer engines is discharged into the nacelles behind the firewall (via that black pipe) and out to atmosphere. On the inner engines, the vent pipe, rather than routing through the firewall, bends downward in front of the firewall and connects to a small tank at the bottom of the firewall. This is so that any oil discharged out of this system doesn't foul the tires and landing gear. More on that in the next post.
This pic shows the back of the engine but the supercharger scroll case and its connection to the inlet manifold have been removed
Piping running down the inboard engine mounts:
View from the back. The silver cylinder is the starter motor. The black
The piping on the outboard side is shown below. The silver unit seen between the engine mounts is the fuel pump. The black hose connected to it is also sen in the above pic and, I think, is the main feed from the fuel tanks.
Crimea_River
Marshal
The following pics are from underneath the #3 engine (starboard inner).
From outboard looking inboard:
Carb intake to the left, coolant pump at center (with large diameter copper coloured pipes connecting to it, and radiator at the extreme right. Starter motor can be seen to the left of the coolant pump.
View from inboard looking outward with radiator to the left:
From inboard looking at the firewall. Below the carb intake is the square tank to collect liquids from the vent system I mentioned earlier. There are two pipes connected at the top. The one on the left (I believe) is the one that connects to the Y at the top of the rocker covers. You can actually see it better in the first pic above. Not sure what the second on connects to (with the yellow pipe clamp) but I can find out if you like. Looks like there is an overflow to the atmosphere on the right side of the tank.
This shot is the best I could do for the connections to the firewall. I'm standing on the inboard side of #3 shooting straight up. The black hose at the bottom is the fuel line which you can just see connected to the fuel pump to the left, above the cylinder with the red cap.
The next shot is looking straight up from the outboard side of #3. I can't identify the connections off hand but can do so if you need me to. The copper pipe in the foreground appears to connect to the coolant pump and, because it connects back to the firewall, I suspect it's part of the cabin heating system, which utilizes coolant from the inboard engines.
Another view from a similar stance clearly showing the coolant pump and carburetor.
That's all the pics I took today Gerry and I hope they may be of assistance. I rather think they may complicate life for you as it's clear that there are differences between inboard and outboard installations. I'd be happy to take more pics if needed, send you better copies of the ones posted above, or delve into my various manual copies for specifics for you as needed. Let me know.
From outboard looking inboard:
Carb intake to the left, coolant pump at center (with large diameter copper coloured pipes connecting to it, and radiator at the extreme right. Starter motor can be seen to the left of the coolant pump.
View from inboard looking outward with radiator to the left:
From inboard looking at the firewall. Below the carb intake is the square tank to collect liquids from the vent system I mentioned earlier. There are two pipes connected at the top. The one on the left (I believe) is the one that connects to the Y at the top of the rocker covers. You can actually see it better in the first pic above. Not sure what the second on connects to (with the yellow pipe clamp) but I can find out if you like. Looks like there is an overflow to the atmosphere on the right side of the tank.
This shot is the best I could do for the connections to the firewall. I'm standing on the inboard side of #3 shooting straight up. The black hose at the bottom is the fuel line which you can just see connected to the fuel pump to the left, above the cylinder with the red cap.
The next shot is looking straight up from the outboard side of #3. I can't identify the connections off hand but can do so if you need me to. The copper pipe in the foreground appears to connect to the coolant pump and, because it connects back to the firewall, I suspect it's part of the cabin heating system, which utilizes coolant from the inboard engines.
Another view from a similar stance clearly showing the coolant pump and carburetor.
That's all the pics I took today Gerry and I hope they may be of assistance. I rather think they may complicate life for you as it's clear that there are differences between inboard and outboard installations. I'd be happy to take more pics if needed, send you better copies of the ones posted above, or delve into my various manual copies for specifics for you as needed. Let me know.
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Excellent pics and info Andy - great job.
Seeing all those pipes, hoses and wires makes you realize just how knowledgeable and skilled the engine fitters were (and are).
It also brings home the hardships endured by those guys, working out in the open, in all weathers, on airfield dispersals, having to skin knuckles working 15 feet up on a gantry, to keep the engines in good order.
Seeing all those pipes, hoses and wires makes you realize just how knowledgeable and skilled the engine fitters were (and are).
It also brings home the hardships endured by those guys, working out in the open, in all weathers, on airfield dispersals, having to skin knuckles working 15 feet up on a gantry, to keep the engines in good order.
Crimea_River
Marshal
Agree with you there Terry. When we put our 29 back together, I was surprised how difficult it was to install the intake side plugs (the ones on the top of the block). The access to the plug holes was very tight and awkward with the intake manifolds surrounding these.
Great shots Andy!
SANCER
Senior Master Sergeant
Agree with Dr. Huge 
- Thread starter
- #1,018
Gerry
Staff Sergeant
Wow! What great references, Andy. They're exactly what I'm looking for and better than I could have hoped for. I really appreciate you taking the time and efffort to shoot and post those marvellous references. I only hope that at some stage I can return the favour. There's so much there to figure out and I will do my best to model a realistic engine from them. Would suggest that your engineers at Nanton don't use my efforts as a schematic though!
I very much appreciate the generosity of the contributors to this great forum in sharing their knowledge, expertise and references so openly and freely. And thanks again to everyone whose posts contribute to make the forum what it is.
Gerry
I very much appreciate the generosity of the contributors to this great forum in sharing their knowledge, expertise and references so openly and freely. And thanks again to everyone whose posts contribute to make the forum what it is.
Gerry
Crimea_River
Marshal
You're very welcome Gerry. My pleasure. I only wish that I could have got some pics from the top of one of the attached engines. I'll keep my eyes open for when the cowls are off and will snap a few more.
Please don't hesitate to ask for any additional help.
Please don't hesitate to ask for any additional help.
Night Fighter Nut
Master Sergeant
Nothing like having a man on the inside with it comes to getting those references that are just too difficult to find.
