1:72 B-25B "Whirling Dervish"

Crimea_River said:

Lots of leeway on the OD as it took on a number of hues when fading IIRC.

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Agreed there, that was my main takeaway from Dana Bell's books. I just didn't expect to find my future replacement for Zinc Chromate green in these bottles, what a fortunate coincidence!

Maty12 said:

There's two other parts I'm not 100% sure on how to paint. One of them is visible in what I believe is the only actual photo of 40-2303 (though it is possible that it's a different aircraft, the reason I think is 40-2303 is because it's parked right behind 40-2242 and even if moved it would make sense to move the aircraft the smallest distance possible). The detail in question is part of the cockpit frame, circled in red below:


I believe that to also be NMF, though again I have no clue why it would be a different color. The final part I'm unsure of how to paint are the cowl rings themselves. Like all the other participating aircraft, 40-2303 had cowl rings matching its squadron assignment, which were then overpainted for camouflage purposes for the raid. I am unsure whether the rings were painted fully olive drab, or if neutral grey was applied to the undersides, continuing the cowlings' markings. No photos of the raiders seem to show this area very well due to shadow and it's highly possible that this was not consistent between aircraft.

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What you see in the photo as a not painted frame, is in fact below the plexiglass. It is in NM, but the glass goes over it. One can see the darker screws. The cockpit glazings varied from model to model and I have a photo of a B-25B in the Inglewood factory, showing this detail. Even under the plexi it should be painted IMHO, but maybe the one on the Raider was exchanged during the modifications.Who knows...


As for the cowl rings IMHO they were overpainted in one tone. There might have been some planes though without coloured coul rings resp. without overpainting. Check the 2 attached photos in full size (from Fold3) showing I think both possibilities.
Cheers!

CATCH 22 said:

What you see in the photo as a not painted frame, is in fact below the plexiglass. It is in NM, but the glass goes over it. One can see the darker screws. The cockpit glazings varied from model to model and I have a photo of a B-25B in the Inglewood factory, showing this detail. Even under the plexi it should be painted IMHO, but maybe the one on the Raider was exchanged during the modifications.Who knows...


As for the cowl rings IMHO they were overpainted in one tone. There might have been some planes though without coloured coul rings resp. without overpainting. Check the 2 attached photos in full size (from Fold3) showing I think both possibilities.
Cheers!

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Thank you, Yves! I must say I thought I knew a lot more about how these planes were painted when I started. In the one photo of 40-2303 I think I see darker OD on the cowlings, but I also think I see some NG on the bottom lip of engine number 2's cowling, so I guess it could go either way. I'll decide whenever I get to them.

Would you suggest I keep the areas I've painted zinc chromate in post #58 or paint these Neutral Grey or Olive Drab?

Maty, I was checking the other day the parts for your model and the clear parts on frame G are these:

Both canopies are for the C/D models not for B - the emergency hatch is bigger for C/D and the frame we spoke yesterday about does not go through.
There is another "not B" element as well: the part which is top left in the frame shows the 2 windows on the left side of the fuselage. They are correct for mid- and late production C/D, but not for early C/D and not for B. On the left side the B-model has 2 small elliptical windows:

On the right side there is no circular window, but a 2/3 -glazed elliptical emergency hatch.

Hope this helps if you want to make some changes.
Cheers!

CATCH 22 said:

Maty, I was checking the other day the parts for your model and the clear parts on frame G are these:
View attachment 683844
Both canopies are for the C/D models not for B - the emergency hatch is bigger for C/D and the frame we spoke yesterday about does not go through.
There is another "not B" element as well: the part which is top left in the frame shows the 2 windows on the left side of the fuselage. They are correct for mid- and late production C/D, but not for early C/D and not for B. On the left side the B-model has 2 small elliptical windows:
View attachment 683845
On the right side there is no circular window, but a 2/3 -glazed elliptical emergency hatch.
View attachment 683846
Hope this helps if you want to make some changes.
Cheers!

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Hi Yves, seems we've posted at the same time by coincidence. I'm afraid you needn't worry on that front as the Airfix Kit comes with a sprue J instead of G, featuring the correct parts for a B-25B (as well as a Doolittle Raid-only tailcone):


It similarly comes with a Sprue H with the Mark Twain Bombsight and long exhaust stack on the port side.
I have noticed however that the model is missing the tailcone frame with the bomb lights, which seems like a weird omission given how visible it is from the outside and how prominent it is in photos. I am not confident I can scratch-build that.

Maty12 said:

Thank you, Yves! I must say I thought I knew a lot more about how these planes were painted when I started. In the one photo of 40-2303 I think I see darker OD on the cowlings, but I also think I see some NG on the bottom lip of engine number 2's cowling, so I guess it could go either way. I'll decide whenever I get to them.

Would you suggest I keep the areas I've painted zinc chromate in post #58 or paint these Neutral Grey or Olive Drab?

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I would do everything which remains inside and is practically invisible (the horizontal areas of the empenage, where the elevators go or the vertical inner areas of the fins in Zink Cr.) and everything else (movable parts of rudders, elevators etc.) in OD.
Oh, very good you have the additional parts! I was checking a standard B-25C/D model by Airfix and didn't check further. Kudos to them!
If I may give you an advice for the frame with the lights: do not try to build it from plastic. make it from paper/cardboard. If you have some drafting program (AutoCAD) you can do it with it and even colorize it before cutting. If not, just draw the exact size as per the model and try cutting the middle area out. Paper is much easier to cut out. The lights can be painted with a drop of white/red paint.

Cheers!

Lots of good stuff going on here

Nicely done so far!

A minefield of info.

CATCH 22 said:

I would do everything which remains inside and is practically invisible (the horizontal areas of the empenage, where the elevators go or the vertical inner areas of the fins in Zink Cr.) and everything else (movable parts of rudders, elevators etc.) in OD.
Oh, very good you have the additional parts! I was checking a standard B-25C/D model by Airfix and didn't check further. Kudos to them!
If I may give you an advice for the frame with the lights: do not try to build it from plastic. make it from paper/cardboard. If you have some drafting program (AutoCAD) you can do it with it and even colorize it before cutting. If not, just draw the exact size as per the model and try cutting the middle area out. Paper is much easier to cut out. The lights can be painted with a drop of white/red paint.

Cheers!

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Thanks again, Yves. I don't have any CAD software (though I do want to look into some for the unrelated B-26 3D model), but will try to make something with paper.

Today and yesterday brought little progress as I try to balance the airplane. I forgot to add the ballast to the nose wheel well before gluing the fuselage shut, but was able to pour a significant amount into the remaining hole before attaching the strut and associated door. There is undoubtedly empty space still in the wheel well, but the weights cannot reach it. I was able to pour 10 grams in there, then poured a further 3 grams behind the instrument panel and another 1 gram in the inboard leading edges of the wings. I have no idea how one would be able to fit the kit's recommended 25 grams of weight into the wheel well. I will be packing more weight in the forward part of the nacelles and in the rear of the bombardier's crawlspace as necessary. The navigator's compartment is also always an option.

The reason this all slows progress so much is that the leadshot requires PVA glue, which takes close to 24h to dry fully (unless I want blobs of PVA and leadshot pouring of their mounts, or worse dozens of tiny leadshot pellets disappearing onto my floor), so I can't flip the kit to work on it. For instance, I cannot attach the nacelles, because I cannot attach the main gear, because I cannot attach the bottom half of the wing, because I cannot attach the landing lights as I need to paint the upper surfaces of the wing first to avoid getting paint on the lights. I cannot paint the wing because the plane needs to be upside down for the current set of weights to dry, and so on.

Regarding the progress that has occurred:
-Wheels and engines have received their first coat of black, will receive another soon to cover any missed areas. The engine cylinders will then be drybrushed in either silver or gunmetal grey.
-Nacelles are mostly assembled.
-Nose landing gear and gear door fitted.
-Weight has been added to the aircraft as already described.
-Exhaust stacks have been painted copper, port stack has been drilled to deepen its opening.
-First coat of Olive Drab has been applied to the port nacelle, because once fitted the exhaust stack will cover part of it which would then be very hard to paint. I find the shade to be a good match for fresh OD but it seems too dark for the faded shade found on photos of the Doolittle Raid planes. I don't own any other shades of OD however (Humbrol and Vallejo offerings, while lighter, both are far too green), so I'm considering my options. Using a mixed paint to cover almost the entirety of the airplane is certainly not ideal, so I might just settled for this shade. If I can replicate it, that is, because OD out of the bottle was even darker and the paint you see in the photo is the result of me mixing it with the lighter too-green shade. I am honestly unsure if the colors actually mixed successfully or if the shade is just a result of the paint lightening as it dried (my Neutral Grey seems to darken when it dries). I really hope it's the latter. In any case my general approach for the fuselage and nacelles will be to use OD and then paint NG over it, as I find that easier to mask than the opposite approach.

Photos:

1- Three grams of leadshot and PVA between the bombardier's bulkhead and the pilot's instrument panel
2- Landing gear mounted, waiting for the leadshot and pva on the wheel well and wing leading edges to dry
3- Port nacelle painted Olive Drab.

Also, this is unrelated to my model itself, but looking at references for the smokestacks I have found that I was incorrect in one of my previous assumptions. I thought that the B-25/B-25A had two identical long exhaust stacks, and that the B model had simply replaced the starboard one with the unit later found on both sides of early B-25Cs. This does not seem to be the case, the initial production B-25 had the long port stack and a medium starboard stack (to my knowledge not documented before), and it seems to me that the B-25A's exhaust stack configuration was the same as the B-25B. I used to have better photos of the B-25B's exhaust stacks but those were several harddrives ago, so most of these are from the other B-25 threads. For a period I had tried to make a livery template for all the early B-25s in IL-2 1946, after a similar attempt at painting B-25Js in War Thunder to resemble B-25Bs.

4- B-25 (or possibly B-25A), showing a medium starboard exhaust stack that ends forward of the nacelle's shiny protective plating.
5- Same as photo 1, but with a different aircraft.
6- B-25A 40-2200, showing a short starboard exhaust stack.
7- B-25 or B-25A showing the long port exhaust stack which extends past the protective plating.
8- B-25B 40-2291 showing the same long port exhaust stack.
I will look into this further when I can, as I find the multiple B-25 exhaust stack configurations and the early models in general very interesting.

Maty12 said:

Also, this is unrelated to my model itself, but looking at references for the smokestacks I have found that I was incorrect in one of my previous assumptions. I thought that the B-25/B-25A had two identical long exhaust stacks, and that the B model had simply replaced the starboard one with the unit later found on both sides of early B-25Cs. This does not seem to be the case, the initial production B-25 had the long port stack and a medium starboard stack (to my knowledge not documented before), and it seems to me that the B-25A's exhaust stack configuration was the same as the B-25B. I used to have better photos of the B-25B's exhaust stacks but those were several harddrives ago, so most of these are from the other B-25 threads. For a period I had tried to make a livery template for all the early B-25s in IL-2 1946, after a similar attempt at painting B-25Js in War Thunder to resemble B-25Bs.
View attachment 683914View attachment 683915View attachment 683917View attachment 683916View attachment 683918
4- B-25 (or possibly B-25A), showing a medium starboard exhaust stack that ends forward of the nacelle's shiny protective plating.
5- Same as photo 1, but with a different aircraft.
6- B-25A 40-2200, showing a short starboard exhaust stack.
7- B-25 or B-25A showing the long port exhaust stack which extends past the protective plating.
8- B-25B 40-2291 showing the same long port exhaust stack.
I will look into this further when I can, as I find the multiple B-25 exhaust stack configurations and the early models in general very interesting.

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Unrelated to your build:
1. Photo #4 is a B-25 s/n 40-2168 with constant wing dehidral, this is a/c # 1 (Headquarters), 17th BG.. This is the fourth production a/c and the oldest B-25 still existing (known as Miss Hap today, but heavily modified with parts from later variants). BTW this is the exact plane I'm trying to build in 1:48 since a couple of years;
2. Photo #5 is a B-25-A, s/n 40-2212 and as shown a/c # 39 from the 34th BS., 17th BG.
B-25 and B-25-A had the same arrangement of exhaust pipes: very long on the left (port) side and medium on the right (starboard) side.
3. Photo #6 is a B-25-A s/n 40-2200 from a LATER period - note the yellow serial number applied. The short exhaust pipe is not standard and probably taken from a B-model (at that time B-25, B-25A and B-25B were used mixed in the bomb. squadrons resp. groups). Note that the whole propeller and the propeller dome are black - again a non-standard feature for the B-25A production, but used on later models.
4. You are right about the long and short exhaust pipes on the B-model. It is quite possible that the remaining B-25 and B-25A (renamed soon RB-25; R= restricted from service) have been brought to the "B-standard" at some point.
Cheers!

Great info guys and I hope you get the weights sorted Matt.

CATCH 22 said:

Unrelated to your build:
1. Photo #4 is a B-25 s/n 40-2168 with constant wing dehidral, this is a/c # 1 (Headquarters), 17th BG.. This is the fourth production a/c and the oldest B-25 still existing (known as Miss Hap today, but heavily modified with parts from later variants). BTW this is the exact plane I'm trying to build in 1:48 since a couple of years;
2. Photo #5 is a B-25-A, s/n 40-2212 and as shown a/c # 39 from the 34th BS., 17th BG.
B-25 and B-25-A had the same arrangement of exhaust pipes: very long on the left (port) side and medium on the right (starboard) side.
3. Photo #6 is a B-25-A s/n 40-2200 from a LATER period - note the yellow serial number applied. The short exhaust pipe is not standard and probably taken from a B-model (at that time B-25, B-25A and B-25B were used mixed in the bomb. squadrons resp. groups). Note that the whole propeller and the propeller dome are black - again a non-standard feature for the B-25A production, but used on later models.
4. You are right about the long and short exhaust pipes on the B-model. It is quite possible that the remaining B-25 and B-25A (renamed soon RB-25; R= restricted from service) have been brought to the "B-standard" at some point.
Cheers!

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I see, that makes a lot of sense. Excited to see your 40-2168 build, the B-25-NA is sorely unrepresented in the model world. Requires a lot of scratchbuilding, so I can understand how it can take years.

Crimea_River said:

Great info guys and I hope you get the weights sorted Matt.

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Thanks, Andy! First coat of OD on the top surfaces has been applied, so things should hopefully speed up soon. As it turns out the OD does dry nicely, though when freshly applied it looks like melted chocolate... or maybe I'm just hungry, who can say. Also, the B-25 proved its sturdiness today as I accidentally bumped it off the desk while trying to reach for something else. Fell about 2 feet to the floor, landing on the belly and the nose gear, yet not scratches, dents or damage. I'm impressed with how solid it is!

Unrelated to anything really, but I've just noticed I can "borrow" the default Norden included as an option on the kit and add it to my B-26's very sparse nose section.

As for interior detailing on the B-25, I'm almost done. I haven't been able to fabricate the tailcone frame, so I am moving on on that front unfortunately. I can always just pry the cone off later when my skills/equipment are up to par. The kit seems not come with a stowed gun option for the nose, but I might get away with just gluing the gun to the side of the greenhouse in the proper angle.

Good work so far!

Great amount of information here. Just catching up.

Great progress

Thanks, gents!

Work is progressing, though whether I'll be able to finish by the deadline I can't be sure. Delays continue with the weights, as it seems the B-25's fall a couple of days back unglued some of the leadshot in the wheel well, which has been leaking out whenever I set the model upright. I've now shot it full of PVA glue and kept it upside down for over 24h, we'll see if that does the trick. Most likely will have to add in weight behind the cockpit, which luckily is doable right up until I add the navigator's window in that compartment at the end of the build.

I spent the last few days trying to paint what I can. Wing halves have been glued together after the landing light was glued in place. Main gear was lined up using the nacelle and then also glued in place (though I did this with the whole nacelle as a unit because I misinterpreted the kit's instructions, giving myself extra work unnecessarily). Nacelles have received 2 coats of olive drab, neutral grey will be applied after assembly. Landing gear doors and wing scoops have been painted OD on the sprue. Tail "guns" and their "slots" have been painted black. I broke one of the guns while sanding excess plastic, will glue it back together later. The other gun and a half have been glued to the tailcone with PVA glue and are drying. Fuselage has received its first coat of OD, and the undersides have received 2. I regret not painting the fuselage before assembly as it would have been much easier, something to keep in mind for next time. Wheels and propellers have received 2 coats of black, wheels then received one coat of silver for the hubs which will need to be repainted. The 3 real guns have been painted gunmetal grey.


Top turret was fully painted and assembled. I went with Bronze Green overall, with black for the gunsight and a drop of silver on the side facing the gunner to mimic a lens. The gunsight ended up with a light gray circle on the opposite side due to how it attached to the sprue, and I think that works well as the other lens. Ammo belts were painted a mix of yellow and copper in an attempt to look like brass, decently happy with the results (though they are too copper-y in color). Guns are gunmetal grey and are able to elevate, turret dome was glued on with PVA. Unfortunately Airfix has not made provisions for this turret to rotate in azimuth, despite doing so for the Bendix belly turret that I did not install. The top turret has to be glued in place otherwise it will fall clean off the fuselage if the kit is flipped upside down, so it will be glued facing backwards as that is the correct position for takeoff.


Lastly, the window frames have been painted. I'm very proud of the results. Olive Drab was applied with a small brush and the excess picked off with a cocktail stick after drying. Were there less windows I would have painted a coat of the interior color first, but on this aircraft that would just be too much of a pain. Some of the cockpit frames were painted silver to match 40-2303, all emergency hatch handles were painted dark red. The nose provided in the kit does not have the ball mountings on the side windows and I do not have the skills to paint them on myself, so unfortunately this will be one inaccuracy in my model. Internal frames for the escape hatch were painted silver as well, based on a photo of 40-2249. I do not know if that is the correct color for them, but can repaint them later. Sorry for the dark photo, with regular lighting the camera seems to think the OD is black.


The area of the model I'm least confident in doing and least looking forward to is drybrushing the engine cylinders, but that is a problem for tomorrow me.

Nice detail work and I sure hope the PVA weight idea works. I've often found the recommended weight on some kits is usually only just enough and a slight breeze will topple the machine, so I tend to overcompensate using fishing shot and Blu Tack.