#1 American Killer, ETO???

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From what I have read Eder shot down the most American planes but I do fully understand what you are saying Lunatic, and not even in a war like the Civil War. Just accidents have given the US military a bad name in friendly fire accidents. I still see it today all the time over here in Iraq.
 
Hi!

The aerial battles over ETO were battle of the masses. Many experten form Russian fornt were killed because of that. There were allways somebody behind of Your neck if You were careless. Dogfight means death because there were alltime somebody seeing You dogfighting. Dive pass and fire.....

When US fighters entered battles over germany most of the quality pilots were killed. Like in ground battles US didin't have to face best of the best of germans. Of course allied pilots were as good as germans but US never faced it when they entered in the ETO. By the time US fighter pilots entered German air space the German pilot quality was draining seriously.

Pertsajakilu
 
So you are saying that a lot of the great German Pilots were already dead?
What about Bar, Galland, Schroer, and Priller just to name a few of the many many many Luftwaffe aces that flew on the western front and survived the war. The quality was not drained.
 
lesofprimus said:
By the time US fighter pilots entered German air space the German pilot quality was draining seriously.
Click to expand...
I will agree with this somewhat, but there were Americans flying with the Brits, and there were many, MANY Aces left in Germany when the USAAF started their campaign....
Click to expand...

And there were many still at the end of the war too.
 
out of curiousity anyone check the line-up of pilots in the 262 JV 44 and JG 7. quite a few aces to say..........

also SturmFw gruppen like JG 3 and JG 300 kicked out quite a few viermottoter's

Walter Dahl of III./JG 3, Stab./JG 300 and EJG 2 has been claimed to have shot down more P-51's than anymone but that info is bogus..........

Erich ~
 
the problem is and we have covered it at length: reduction of airfields due to the shrinking of the Reich and lack of fuels for jet and piston prop fighters. Plenty of a/c and eager young pilots
 
For instance Heinrich Bartels shot down 14 P-38's and had 99 total kills he was not killed until June 1944. Hafner shot down 8 P-38's and had 204 total and was not killed until Oct 1944. Wilhelm Steinmann shot down 11 P-51's, 7 P-47's and had a total of 51 kills and he survived the war. These are just a few.
 
Erich said:
the problem is and we have covered it at length: reduction of airfields due to the shrinking of the Reich and lack of fuels for jet and piston prop fighters. Plenty of a/c and eager young pilots
Click to expand...

You are correct.
 
In January of 1945, Galland and many other top Luftwaffe pilots essentially
mutinied against Reichsluftmarschall "Meyer". Galland and his peers demanded the adoption of a newly developed tactics to fight the RAF and USAAF bombers, they wanted to have all Me-262's released for immediate operational fighter status and they wanted Hitler to relieve Göring of his command for gross incompetence. Challenging Göring on these issues were Major Hans-Heinrich von Brüstlein, Oberst Günther von Maltzahn, Oberst Edu Neumann, Oberst Harald Rödl, Oberst Günther Steinhoff as well as Galland.

Göring however was informed of Galland's efforts and took immediate countermeasures. He essentially ignored the pilots and tempers quickly flared. After a series of unproductive shouting matches, Göring then retaliated by having Galland and a few of his cohorts arrested.

Though the idea to court-martial Galland was quickly dropped, Galland was ordered by Göring to leave Berlin immediately and await further orders. Lützow, who was the spokesperson for the mutinying Luftwaffe pilots, was banished to Italy and forbidden to contact Galland, except to discuss business matters.

At this time, Albert Speer intervened. Speer was so disgusted with Göring's callous behavior, he immediately contacted a sleeping Hitler in the middle of the night to seek the Führer's assistance. The next morning, a visibly shaken Galland was assured by many high level military and political officials of the Third Reich, that the events of the previous day or two had only been a series of massive communications misunderstandings.

Galland was to meet with Hitler right away. A short while later, Göring summoned Galland to his personal residence, Karinhall, and advised Galland that it was only due to the personal request of him, Göring, that all criminal charges filed against Galland were to be dropped. In addition, the Führer had ordered Galland to establish a special squadron comprised only of Me-262 aircraft. Galland could select any name he wanted for the new squadron, provided that he did not lend his own name to the unit.

In addition, the Führer had allowed Galland to select any pilot from the Luftwaffe he wanted to, to staff the new formation with. Quickly, Galland sent Steinhoff off to recruit the best pilots the Luftwaffe had to offer. With a touch of cynicism (and a tribute to his first unit command, III./JG 88 "Mickey Mouse Staffel" in Spain), Galland elected to use the year 1944 in his designation - Jagdverband (JV) 44 (in some texts, the units is also identified as Jagdgruppe 44 "Galland"). During its very short operational career, atleast 10 of the 50 plus pilots of JV 44 were "Ritterkreuz" (Knights Cross)award recipients. It was thus truly a squadron of expert pilots. Its rosterincluded such distinguished Luftwaffe pilots such as Steinhoff, Krupinski, Bär, Lützow, Herget, Kaiser and others. Working with the Me 262 pilots of JG 7, JV 44 became combat ready on 31 March 1945. JV 44's primary mission assignments were to destroy Allied bombers and down as many Allied fighters as possible.

Due to the military situation of the time, various stretches of the München-Augsburg Autobahn served as the primary bases of JV 44. Of interest is that JV 44 really never had more than 15 operational Me-262 jets available at any given time from a pool of about 25-30 assigned aircraft.

Despite the handicaps, JV 44 was able to achieve close to 50 confirmed kills before the war ended on 09 May 1945. JV 44 was overrun by U.S. armored formation at its new base in Salzburg-Maxglan on 03 May 1945.

http://www.skysthelimitgallery.com/IMAGES/Special/news_last.pdf

The following table lists only JV44 pilots who qualify as Experten.
These 17 pilots alone accounted for 1726 Allied planes destroyed in aerial combat.
An average of 101.5 planes each!

Pilot Rank Notes Victories

Bär, Heinz Oberstlt RK-EL-S Acting Kommandeur JV44 220
Barkhorn, Gerhard Major RK-EL-S Fmr Kommodore JG 6 301
Bob, Hans-Ekkehard Major RK 59
Galland, Adolf Gernerallt Wounded 26.4.45 RK-EL-S-Br Kommandeur JV44 104
Grüberg, Hans Oberlt RK 82
Herget, Wilhelm Major Wounded 2.5.45 RK-EL 72
Hohagen, Erich Major RK Technical Officer JV44 55
Kaiser, Herbert Ofw RK 68
Krupinski, Walter Hauptmann RK-EL 197
Lützow, Günther Oberstlt MIA 24.4.45 RK-EL-S 108
Neuman, Klaus Leutnant RK 37
Nielinger, Rudolf Ofw 20
Sachsenberg, Karl Heinz Leutnant RK Leader Würger-Staffel 104
Schnell, Karl-Heinz Major RK 72
Schuhmacher, Leo Ofw Rk 23
Steinhoff, Johannes Oberst Wounded 18.4.45 RK-EL-S 176
Stigler, Franz Oberlt Technical Officer, JV44 28

Awards
German / English

RK Ritter Kreuz / Knights Cross
EL Eichenlaubs / Oak Leaves to RK
S Schwerten / Swords to RK-EL
Br Brillanten / Diamonds to RK-EL-S


The combat records of many of the JV44 staff have been lost to history. It is quite possible, if not probable that even more Experten were present. Missing from the above list are two pilots with known victories while flying Me 262s with JV44. They are Uffz. Johann-Karl Müller with 3 victories and Ofw. Otto Kammerdierer with 2 victories.
 
Herget was a RK receipient while in NJG 4. He was the one that flew the monster Mk 214 5cm cannon equipped Me 262. The cannon failed on both missions while attack B-26 formations.

Franz Stigler was a DK winner while in JG 27. At least 5 B-17's to his credit he is a Bf 109G ace. Still alive and living in Canada. A neat guy !

Hans Grunberg died this last year. A RK recipient with JG 3 and later in JG 7 he had a great wingman still alive in Walter Bohatsch. I have been fortunate enough to have my JG 7 book signed by both gentlemen. Walter is still alive and has written his own memories. Walter is given credit erronously to have started the high cover of Sturmstaffel 1 with Bf 109G-6's as Staffelkaptian of 2./JG 3 during April-June of 1944. In reality freind and ace of Jg 51 and 2./JG 3 Horst Petzschler transferred over to give Walter a hand and he was the one that incepted the idea as it was being done in Jg 51 on the ost front during the ground attack sorties by the unit..............sorry for the ramble.
 
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