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A pilot who was at Java described a Hurricane coming in to land when some Oscars suddenly appeared and set the Hurricane on fire. The pilot pulled up to about 800 ft and bailed out successfully. The Oscar then pulled up sharply and broke up
Is this figure accurate as there were other charts that displayed different figures
All of the data (no real tests, mostly anecdotes and squadron surveys) I've seen on the Hurricane's roll rate indicates it was very similar to the Spitfire with fabric-covered ailerons.
As RCAFson said, during their tests the NACA found the Spitfire (metal ailerons) remarkably similar to the Hurricane in roll performance. This was at 30 pounds stick force.
The Hurricane's rate of roll at 30 pounds was somewhat similar to the F4F-3's rate of roll at 50 pounds. So if I had to guess I'd say the Hurricane has the Wild
It wasn't only the top speed of the Spitfire that was limited when carrying the 90/170 gal slipper tanks, yes 90 gal tanks too, but they could only fly in a straight and level line, no manoeuvres were allowed so you would be a sitting target for an enemy fighter. In the case of the 45 gal slipper tank, those extra restrictions didn't apply. In practice, the 45 gal slipper tank was only used for patrol work and the 30 gal slipper tank did not need to be jettisoned and could be retained in combat. So imagine, a Spitfire Vc TROP with a 30 gal slipper tank, your top speed is probably 350+ mph, so you'd have a hard task intercepting a Ki-46-II which would be 20+ mph faster or you're a Seafire IIc on patrol with a 45 gal slipper tank, well you might as well use a Wildcat, a much better plane for carrier work.The 170 was the one that looked like a cheese-wheel with a fairing behind it hanging underneath the belly right?
Last I checked the problem with the proposals for using slipper tanks and rear-tanks was that the speed of the plane was limited to around 240 mph. While it'd fly comfortably at that speed, if it got jumped by enemy fighters, it may not have been able to gain speed quick enough to fight effectively. When the P-38's, P-47's, and P-51's were used, they generally flew at around 300 mph which allowed much better combat performance (and used essing to stay with the bombers).
Why didn't they use those more?
Also, why didn't they fit the 20 gallon tank used on the PR.IV?
I've looked at this chart before, I was just confused because there was a chart that was dated 1941, and possible other detail changes made over the years.
Are you saying the Hurricane, P-63 and F2A have similar roll-rates with 25% deflection with varying control-loads?I have posted some roll rate info on the Hurricane earlier in this thread, where at 1/4 aileron deflection the Hurricane out rolls a Spit 1 and a P36 and has a similar rate to the Buffalo.
So these were functionally ferry tanks? What made them unsuitable for maneuvers?It wasn't only the top speed of the Spitfire that was limited when carrying the 90/170 gal slipper tanks, yes 90 gal tanks too, but they could only fly in a straight and level line, no manoeuvres were allowed so you would be a sitting target for an enemy fighter.
So the 45 gallon tank was the biggest that could take maneuver forces, and the 30-gallon tank couldn't be jettisoned?In the case of the 45 gal slipper tank, those extra restrictions didn't apply. In practice, the 45 gal slipper tank was only used for patrol work and the 30 gal slipper tank did not need to be jettisoned and could be retained in combat.
I've looked at this chart before, I was just confused because there was a chart that was dated 1941, and possible other detail changes made over the years.
Are you saying the Hurricane, P-63 and F2A have similar roll-rates with 25% deflection with varying control-loads?
So these were functionally ferry tanks? What made them unsuitable for maneuvers?
So the 45 gallon tank was the biggest that could take maneuver forces, and the 30-gallon tank couldn't be jettisoned?
Limiting the speed to 240mph wouldn't have been a major problem as the bombers normally cruise at around that speed so less weaving would be needed. On the journey to the danger area a lot of this extra fuel would have been used, tanks released and normal performance returned.Last I checked the problem with the proposals for using slipper tanks and rear-tanks was that the speed of the plane was limited to around 240 mph. While it'd fly comfortably at that speed, if it got jumped by enemy fighters, it may not have been able to gain speed quick enough to fight effectively. When the P-38's, P-47's, and P-51's were used, they generally flew at around 300 mph which allowed much better combat performance (and used essing to stay with the bombers).
Why didn't they use those more?
COMBAT PERFORMANCE WITH 90 GALLON LONG-RANGE TANKS
50. As the Spitfire XIV has a very short range it has been assumed that when a long-range tank is to be carried, it is most likely to be the 90 gallon tank rather than the 30 gallon or 45 gallon. Pending further instructions, no drops or trials have been carried out with the 30 gallon or 45 gallon tanks. The aircraft's performance with either can be estimated from the results given below of trials with the 90 gallon long-range tank.
Drops
51. The aircraft was fitted with assistor springs as for the Spitfire IX. Two drops were made with empty tanks at 50 ft and 25,000 ft, A.S.I. 250 mph, with no trouble. Cine photographs were taken and show the tank dropping quite clear of the aircraft. Further trials would be necessary to check these results thoroughly.
Speeds
52. About 20 m.p.h. is knocked off the maximum speed and correspondingly off the speed at intermediate throttle settings. The aircraft is still faster than the FW.190 (BMW.801D) and the Me.109G above 20,000 ft.
Climb
53. Climb is most affected. With a half-full tank its maximum climb becomes identical with the Spitfire IX without the tank. Even with a full tank it can therefore climb as fast as the FW.190 or Me.109G. Its zoom climb is hardly affected.
Dive
54. So long as the tank is more than 1/3 full, the dive acceleration is similar.
Turning Circle
55. The Spitfire XIV now has a definitely wider turning circle than before, but is still within those of the FW.190 (BMW.801D) and Me.109G.
Rate of Roll
56. Similar.
Conclusions
57. Even with the 90 gallon tank, the Spitfire XIV can equal or outclass the FW.190 (BMW.801D) and the Me.109G in every respect. Its main advantages remain the tight turn and maximum climb.
Of course, but if jumped by enemy fighters, you might not be able to gain a sufficient amount of speed to engage in effective aerial combat.Limiting the speed to 240mph wouldn't have been a major problem as the bombers normally cruise at around that speed so less weaving would be needed.
You are of course correct but normally by the time you get into enemy territory the extra fuel would have been used and the tanks dropped. Its a risk that you might get caught out, but war is about taking calculated risks.Of course, but if jumped by enemy fighters, you might not be able to gain a sufficient amount of speed to engage in effective aerial combat.
If you're talking about SEA, you're right... however this was based on operations into Germany. You'd be over their territory in like 100 miles...You are of course correct but normally by the time you get into enemy territory
If you're talking about SEA, you're right... however this was based on operations into Germany. You'd be over their territory in like 100 miles...
The Russians modified their Hurricane IIb's to have two 20 mm and two 0.5 in guns. It improved turning circle and roll rate and had twice the firepower of a Bf 109F. They used it successfully in the first five months of 1942, so it definitely wasn't obsolete at that time, exactly the same time when it was having problems in the Far East.
...The Hurricane had an excellent roll rate...
1) ...2)NACA roll rate comparison:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/naca868-rollchart.jpg
A NACA paper dated 16 Nov 1942 compared the roll rate of the Hurricane Mk2A, Spitfire V, P40 and P36. The Hurricane had the best roll rate in terms of roll rate per 5lb stick force and this matches pilot comments and RAF mock combat reports. Hurricane and Spitfire maximum roll rates were nearly identical, but slightly superior to the Spitfire and so the Spitfire curve, above, can be used for the Hurricane...
Spiteful
Scroll down to post #49. The 45 gal slipper tank is best used for defensive patrols only...
Something I read many years ago. Damaged was assessed as a %. Only the very basic damage was repaired by the unit (10% comes to mind). All other was sent to a repair depot. 60% and over was sent to a salvage depot.
Juha2, a member here, might have more detail.