A Critical Analysis of the RAF Air Superiority Campaign in India, Burma and Malaya in 1941-45

GrauGeist · Jul 10, 2019

PAT303 said:
The argument is the P40 and Hurricane were effective front line fighters which they weren't, both, and the much maligned Zero were second line fighters from 1942-43 onwards.

In light of what the Allies had available to them through the early part of 1943 - the Hurricane and the P-40 were the front-line fighters of the CBI...

I understand that the Hurricane and the P-40 were being eclipsed in the ETO and MTO during the same time period, but they weren't up against the Luftwaffe and Regia Aeronautica and their tactics.
The Japanese had completely different hardware and tactics, so it was an entirely different war with entirely different metrics.

XBe02Drvr · Jul 10, 2019

PAT303 said:
The argument is the P40 and Hurricane were effective front line fighters which they weren't, both, and the much maligned Zero were second line fighters from 1942-43 onwards.

So essentially the CBI was a second rate theater (like the porn cinema on the wrong side of town) until the mighty Spitfire showed up and gave it status? Thank you for the enlightenment!
Cheers,
Wes

Mad Dog · Jul 10, 2019

XBe02Drvr said:
So essentially the CBI was a second rate theater...….

Pretty much, as far as Whitehall was concerned. Even when the RAF were sending Spitfire VIIIs and P-47s to the theatre, the number of wings involved was tiny compared to the number of wings devoted to the ETO.

PAT303 · Jul 11, 2019

XBe02Drvr said:
So essentially the CBI was a second rate theater (like the porn cinema on the wrong side of town) until the mighty Spitfire showed up and gave it status? Thank you for the enlightenment!
Cheers,
Wes

You have a very active imagination to come to this conclusion considering nobody said anything of the sort, I'll give you that.

PAT303 · Jul 11, 2019

Mad Dog said:
Pretty much, as far as Whitehall was concerned. Even when the RAF were sending Spitfire VIIIs and P-47s to the theatre, the number of wings involved was tiny compared to the number of wings devoted to the ETO.

Defeating Nazi Germany was the Allies primary gaol, then the Japanese.

Glider · Jul 11, 2019

XBe02Drvr said:
So essentially the CBI was a second rate theater (like the porn cinema on the wrong side of town) until the mighty Spitfire showed up and gave it status? Thank you for the enlightenment!
Cheers,
Wes

I will bow to your obviously more comprehensive knowledge on this topic

MIflyer · Jul 11, 2019

Pilots in the CBI reported that after the Marianas Turkey Shoot that their aerial opposition dropped off markedly. It was a 2nd rate theater for the Japanese after they took those huge losses in the Pacific.

pinsog · Jul 17, 2019

PAT303 said:
The argument is the P40 and Hurricane were effective front line fighters which they weren't, both, and the much maligned Zero were second line fighters from 1942-43 onwards.

In 1942-43 those 2nd line Zero's flew 500 miles one way down to Darwin, shot down 28 Spitfire's and ran a couple dozen other's out of fuel over their own territory and then flew home with a loss of 4 Zero's and 1 KI43.

Meanwhile the Germans and British could barely come to blows from different sides of the English Channel without one side running out of fuel.

Would someone please tell me which German or English fighter you would have chosen in 1942, 1943, 1944 or 1945 to replace that 2nd rate Zero that could have flown as escort to the G4M Betty air raids on Darwin that could have whipped the Spitfire V and then flown back home?

PAT303 · Jul 18, 2019

pinsog said:
In 1942-43 those 2nd line Zero's flew 500 miles one way down to Darwin, shot down 28 Spitfire's and ran a couple dozen other's out of fuel over their own territory and then flew home with a loss of 4 Zero's and 1 KI43.

Meanwhile the Germans and British could barely come to blows from different sides of the English Channel without one side running out of fuel.

Would someone please tell me which German or English fighter you would have chosen in 1942, 1943, 1944 or 1945 to replace that 2nd rate Zero that could have flown as escort to the G4M Betty air raids on Darwin that could have whipped the Spitfire V and then flown back home?

MkIX Spitfire of course. https://forum.keypublishing.com/filedata/fetch?id=3842013&d=1543311117

PAT303 · Jul 18, 2019

pinsog said:
In 1942-43 those 2nd line Zero's flew 500 miles one way down to Darwin, shot down 28 Spitfire's and ran a couple dozen other's out of fuel over their own territory and then flew home with a loss of 4 Zero's and 1 KI43.

Meanwhile the Germans and British could barely come to blows from different sides of the English Channel without one side running out of fuel.

Would someone please tell me which German or English fighter you would have chosen in 1942, 1943, 1944 or 1945 to replace that 2nd rate Zero that could have flown as escort to the G4M Betty air raids on Darwin that could have whipped the Spitfire V and then flown back home?

You have fun trying to fight Spitfire VIII's, IX's and XIV's, FW190A's and D's and Me109G's in a Zero that's 90-100mph slower with no armour or self sealing tanks.

pinsog · Jul 18, 2019

Schweik said:
yeah but if you make it to 400 mph I don't think the Ki-43 can follow, or at least not with the wings still attached. A6M top speed is also close to that.

There is also this test (see page 7) which shows that P-40Ks could actually outrun A6M in level flight, extend, turn around and come back for a head-on attack, without even diving.

S

I somehow missed this post from last month. I have read that test showing P40K's and P43's tested against a Zero, but sadly that Zero was not performing near 100%. Look at the top speed of the Zero 289 mph at 15,000 feet. The Zero should be doing 315-330 at that altitude. Climb rate is also much lower than a standard Zero. I would LOVE to see a test with a Zero performing at 100% vs a P43 at full available power. I have always thought a P43, fitted with armor and true self sealing tanks, would have been the best fighter the US had to fight the Zero until the P38 arrived. The P43, unlike the P38, Hellcat and Corsair, could have been there day 1 of the war with Japan but we chose not to use it.

Kevin J · Jul 18, 2019

pinsog said:
I somehow missed this post from last month. I have read that test showing P40K's and P43's tested against a Zero, but sadly that Zero was not performing near 100%. Look at the top speed of the Zero 289 mph at 15,000 feet. The Zero should be doing 315-330 at that altitude. Climb rate is also much lower than a standard Zero. I would LOVE to see a test with a Zero performing at 100% vs a P43 at full available power. I have always thought a P43, fitted with armor and true self sealing tanks, would have been the best fighter the US had to fight the Zero until the P38 arrived. The P43, unlike the P38, Hellcat and Corsair, could have been there day 1 of the war with Japan but we chose not to use it.

Even better, the Mohawk with 2 stage engine from the F4F-3.

pinsog · Jul 18, 2019

PAT303 said:
MkIX Spitfire of course. https://forum.keypublishing.com/filedata/fetch?id=3842013&d=1543311117

Was this variant of the Spitfire built?

pinsog · Jul 18, 2019

PAT303 said:
You have fun trying to fight Spitfire VIII's, IX's and XIV's, FW190A's and D's and Me109G's in a Zero that's 90-100mph slower with no armour or self sealing tanks.

No kidding! I sure wouldn't want to be in that Zero, I'd stand about as much of a chance as a Spitfire over Darwin!

I'd rather be in a KI43 in that situation, at least it had armor and self sealing tanks and the ailerons didn't stiffen up at high speed.

pinsog · Jul 18, 2019

Kevin J said:
Even better, the Mohawk with 2 stage engine from the F4F-3.

A Mohawk/Hawk 75/P36 would have gained a lot from any engine upgrade. A 2 speed P&W 1830-33 would be easiest and lightest, 77 pounds heavier than the P36 engine, top speed jumps from 295'ish to about 325 at 17,000. The 1830-86 from a Wildcat would add about 150 pounds. Jumping from 1403 to 1550 on engine weight, performance guess would be 330 mph at 20,000. But a turbocharger, adding probably 250 pounds, should put it at about 360 mph at 25,000 feet.

Kevin J · Jul 18, 2019

pinsog said:
A Mohawk/Hawk 75/P36 would have gained a lot from any engine upgrade. A 2 speed P&W 1830-33 would be easiest and lightest, 77 pounds heavier than the P36 engine, top speed jumps from 295'ish to about 325 at 17,000. The 1830-86 from a Wildcat would add about 150 pounds. Jumping from 1403 to 1550 on engine weight, performance guess would be 330 mph at 20,000. But a turbocharger, adding probably 250 pounds, should put it at about 360 mph at 25,000 feet.

Are the turbos reliable enough in 1942. Me, I'd go for a cleaned up Hurricane in the CBI.

Schweik · Jul 18, 2019

PAT303 said:
The argument is the P40 and Hurricane were effective front line fighters which they weren't, both, and the much maligned Zero were second line fighters from 1942-43 onwards.

I think the facts bear out that the P-40 was certainly an effective front line fighter in the CBI through the end of the war. It certainly had the highest success rate, nor were P-40 units complaining of inferiority to enemy aircraft. The Hurricane was much less effective after 1941.

Schweik · Jul 18, 2019

GrauGeist said:
In light of what the Allies had available to them through the early part of 1943 - the Hurricane and the P-40 were the front-line fighters of the CBI...

I understand that the Hurricane and the P-40 were being eclipsed in the ETO and MTO during the same time period, but they weren't up against the Luftwaffe and Regia Aeronautica and their tactics.
The Japanese had completely different hardware and tactics, so it was an entirely different war with entirely different metrics.

By late 1942, Hurricanes were almost never flying fighter missions in the Med, though later model P-40s still were. The USAAF Fighter Groups did quite well with them through the end of 1943.

23rd FG in China and 80th etc. in Burma / India were able to achieve air superiority in the CBI. The P-40 seemed to be ideal for that Theater.

Schweik · Jul 18, 2019

Two other aircraft in the CBI which I think made a dent was the Beaufighter, and the Vengeance which we mentioned in another thread. The Beaufighter was operating out of Burma or India from at least 1943 and could do a lot of damage. The Aussies apparently got a lot of mileage out of the Vultee Vengeance even though the Brits and Americans didn't think much of it.

taly01 · Jul 19, 2019

A Mohawk/Hawk 75/P36 would have gained a lot from any engine upgrade.

I once saw a graph of P-36 types performance and their is a huge variation as the early ones had 900hp single speed supercharger and the last had 1200hp two speed superchargers. AFAIK the British only used the 1200hp Cyclone engined ones in combat CBI, the lower powered ones were for training etc.

The British use of the Mohawk (P-36/Hawk 75) is interesting as they were a mix of different export models they got from allies countries that were overrun early in the war. I don't think the British ever ordered any direct from Curtiss? Yet became the country to use it most in combat!?

A Critical Analysis of the RAF Air Superiority Campaign in India, Burma and Malaya in 1941-45

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