A superior German fighter

[bob44]

I cannot find the German pilot who said something like - before the BOB, the 109 was vastly superior to any other fighter. After fighting the Spitfire, we (Germans) need something much better than the 109 and 190. A jet fighter.
What could the Germans have done before the BOB to get a jet fighter into use?
Assuming hitler would give this order.

 

[davebender]

Nothing. Not even Jumo 004A engine could have been mass produced that early.

 

[DonL]

I cannot find the German pilot who said something like - before the BOB, the 109 was vastly superior to any other fighter. After fighting the Spitfire, we (Germans) need something much better than the 109 and 190. A jet fighter.
What could the Germans have done before the BOB to get a jet fighter into use?
Assuming hitler would give this order.

The Bf 109F-4 was better or equal to the Spitfire V
The FW 190A outclassed the Spitfire V at 1942
A Fw 187 with two DB 601A1 would have outclassed a Spitfire MK II and V at Speed, dive, range and arnament. With two DB 601F (1350PS), it would had outclassed the Spitfire IX from speed, dive, range and arnament.

 

[VBF-13]

The Bf 109F-4 was better or equal to the Spitfire V
The FW 190A outclassed the Spitfire V at 1942
A Fw 187 with two DB 601A1 would have outclassed a Spitfire MK II and V at Speed, dive, range and arnament. With two DB 601F (1350PS), it would had outclassed the Spitfire IX from speed, dive, range and arnament.

The Luftwaffe did reasonably well against the Spitfires. Germany just didn't have the staying power the U.S. had to make new aircraft that would make a turkey shoot out of those confrontations.

 

[DonL]

The Luftwaffe did reasonably well against the Spitfires. Germany just didn't have the staying power the U.S. had to make new aircraft that would make a turkey shoot out of those confrontations.

No FW 187 with DB 601 F or DB 605A wouldn't be ever a turkey shoot to any USAAF fighter! Even a a P 51 H would have had a hard time to bring down a FW 187 whith DB 601 F engines and a high speed of 680km/h/altitude 7000m at 1942. Also the FW 187 was much better to the sticks as any Bf 109 at high speed! It wasn't only the numbers and fuel, the Bf 109G was dead meat at the West since 1943/44 and the quality of the Bf 109G was average to worse from performance and reaction to the sticks for nooby pilots!

 

[VBF-13]

No FW 187 with DB 601 F or DB 605A wouldn't be ever a turkey shoot to any USAAF fighter! Even a a P 51 H would have had a hard time to bring down a FW 187 whith DB 601 F engines and a high speed of 680km/h/altitude 7000m at 1942. Also the FW 187 was much better to the sticks as any Bf 109 at high speed! It wasn't only the numbers and fuel, the Bf 109G was dead meat at the West since 1943/44 and the quality of the Bf 109G was average to worse from performance and reaction to the sticks for nooby pilots!

Do you mind if I say something, while you, um, catch your breath? You don't have to shout, Don. I hear you. In fact, wasn't one of the purposes of the around-the-clock bombings to put the Luftwaffe to those stresses? I'll defer to your technical expertise on those engines, as I wouldn't rightly know.

 

[altsym]

the Bf 109G was dead meat at the West since 1943/44

In what respect was it 'dead meat'?

 

[DonL]

The Bf 109 G series suffered heavy issues!
The DB 605 was deficient and was far away from a reliable engine 1942/43 and was cleared to emergency power at the end of 1943.
This wasn't only a fault of Daimler Benz, because the fuselage of the Bf 109 G wasn't able to create enough cooling for the DB 605. Read the report of Prof. Neilinger and the issues between the DB 605 and the Bf 109G. Also the Bf 109 G series was a step back from aerodynamics compare to the Bf 109 F-4 with all that bulges and especially the Bf 109 G6 with the two gondulas under the wings was dead meat to any allied escort fighter like the P47, P38 and P51.

The Bf 109 G series and especially the Bf 109 G6 with the two gondulas under the wings was a bitch to fly, from after action reports of skilled german pilots.
The Bf 109 G series wasn't any easy a/c for new pilots, it was very hard for the noobies to handle the worse stick control at high speed and also to defend their a/c against any Allied escort fighter. You can't compare Experten with hundreds of sorties and very very skilled handling capabilitys to a nooby fresh out of the training school.

 

[tyrodtom]

And a nooby right out of flight school is going to do better in a more complex twin engined fighter ??

 

[DonL]

Why more complex?

Every german a/c from Bf 109, Bf 110, FW 190, Ju 88 and Fw 187 was controlled to a single handled power stick.
There were no issues with fuel mixes or prop pitches (it was automatic handled from the a/c)
From all after action reports to FW a/c's (this incuded the FW 187 at it's sorties at Norway and Denmark), FW a/c's were much easier to handle at high speeds compare to Messerschmitt a/c's. The stick controls were easy to handle even at 550km/h and above.

 

[Civettone]

No FW 187 with DB 601 F or DB 605A wouldn't be ever a turkey shoot to any USAAF fighter! Even a a P 51 H would have had a hard time to bring down a FW 187 whith DB 601 F engines and a high speed of 680km/h/altitude 7000m at 1942. Also the FW 187 was much better to the sticks as any Bf 109 at high speed! It wasn't only the numbers and fuel, the Bf 109G was dead meat at the West since 1943/44 and the quality of the Bf 109G was average to worse from performance and reaction to the sticks for nooby pilots!

How can you know the Fw 187 would be superior to them? Are there any test reports which show this? How do you know it would dive faster than a Spitfire IX? How do you know the Fw 187 would be more easy to handle once it had doubled its engine power?

That the Bf 109G was "dead meat" in 1943/1944 is a great exaggeration. It was still a deadly foe and was loved by those who flew it and feared by those who opposed it. It may have been difficult to fly for recruits but there were many great planes which were unforgiven for the inexperienced. The Bf 109G was essentially the same airframe as the Bf 109F which was considered to be a very fine and responsive plane to fly.

Kris

 

[OldSkeptic]

The Bf 109 G series suffered heavy issues!
The DB 605 was deficient and was far away from a reliable engine 1942/43 and was cleared to emergency power at the end of 1943.
This wasn't only a fault of Daimler Benz, because the fuselage of the Bf 109 G wasn't able to create enough cooling for the DB 605. Read the report of Prof. Neilinger and the issues between the DB 605 and the Bf 109G. Also the Bf 109 G series was a step back from aerodynamics compare to the Bf 109 F-4 with all that bulges and especially the Bf 109 G6 with the two gondulas under the wings was dead meat to any allied escort fighter like the P47, P38 and P51.

The Bf 109 G series and especially the Bf 109 G6 with the two gondulas under the wings was a bitch to fly, from after action reports of skilled german pilots.
The Bf 109 G series wasn't any easy a/c for new pilots, it was very hard for the noobies to handle the worse stick control at high speed and also to defend their a/c against any Allied escort fighter. You can't compare Experten with hundreds of sorties and very very skilled handling capabilitys to a nooby fresh out of the training school.

Well said, the 109F was the pinnacle of the design without significant aerodynamic and structural changes. They desperately needed to do a major upgrade (like the Typhoon to Tempest conversion, or the 190A to Dora).

The single biggest problem was that it was so small. it was the smallest and lightest of the fighters in the ETO.

While this was a significant advantage in 39/40/41/part of 42, after that the airframe was too small for the extra power and weapons needed to be competitive.
Therefore the aerodynamics started to get severely compromised making the plane unable to really utilise the extra power available.
Plus, it made what was a moderately difficult plane for a beginner to fly and fight effectively, into something more difficult. And given the attrition the Luftwaffe was suffering it needed something that was far far easier for the newbies to be able to utilise more effectively.

Kurt Tank did it with the 190, apart from its nasty high speed stall characteristic (something shared with the Mustang) it was by all accounts an easy plane to fly.

A crash program to stretch the fuselage and have a larger wing (and sorting out the ailerons and elevator issues), would have produced a far better plane for that later period, especially for the higher altitude work, capable of really absorbing and using the extra power that was becoming available.

Willy Messerschmitt and his team really did a great job designing it, but there are some parallels with the Zero in that there were compromises in the design that ultimately limited it. And, for some unknown reason (at least to me), they were unwilling to make a sensible upgrade.

Part of the issue was that they were more aerodynamically conservative than Supermarine (but much less than Hawker of course).
The way they achieved its (in 39/40/41) excellent performance was to make it as small and light as possible and have a higher wing loading (with the reduced drag), squaring the circle by using slats.

But it left less expansion room for larger and more powerful engines and weapons, plus the aerodynamics were less capable of absorbing them.

 

[riacrato]

Making the Bf 109 fuselage longer and the wings wider means more weight and more drag for the same engine power. The last thing the 109 needs in 1943-44 is to fall behind (even more) in level speed when it was already somewhat slower than its contemporaries from the G-6 model on.

To compensate you'd need a more powerful engine such as the DB 603 or Jumo 213... for which the FW 190 is the far more sensible airframe.

The Bf 109 should've gotten some of its refinements earlier and (if possible) be phased out more and sooner in favour of the FW 190 and derivatives. It was still okay for the west, especially the very late marks, and definetly competetive in the east until the very end.

 

[wiking85]

Well said, the 109F was the pinnacle of the design without significant aerodynamic and structural changes. They desperately needed to do a major upgrade (like the Typhoon to Tempest conversion, or the 190A to Dora).

The single biggest problem was that it was so small. it was the smallest and lightest of the fighters in the ETO.

While this was a significant advantage in 39/40/41/part of 42, after that the airframe was too small for the extra power and weapons needed to be competitive.
Therefore the aerodynamics started to get severely compromised making the plane unable to really utilise the extra power available.
Plus, it made what was a moderately difficult plane for a beginner to fly and fight effectively, into something more difficult. And given the attrition the Luftwaffe was suffering it needed something that was far far easier for the newbies to be able to utilise more effectively.

Kurt Tank did it with the 190, apart from its nasty high speed stall characteristic (something shared with the Mustang) it was by all accounts an easy plane to fly.

A crash program to stretch the fuselage and have a larger wing (and sorting out the ailerons and elevator issues), would have produced a far better plane for that later period, especially for the higher altitude work, capable of really absorbing and using the extra power that was becoming available.

Willy Messerschmitt and his team really did a great job designing it, but there are some parallels with the Zero in that there were compromises in the design that ultimately limited it. And, for some unknown reason (at least to me), they were unwilling to make a sensible upgrade.

Part of the issue was that they were more aerodynamically conservative than Supermarine (but much less than Hawker of course).
The way they achieved its (in 39/40/41) excellent performance was to make it as small and light as possible and have a higher wing loading (with the reduced drag), squaring the circle by using slats.

But it left less expansion room for larger and more powerful engines and weapons, plus the aerodynamics were less capable of absorbing them.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_209
They spent their development efforts on the failed 209 and 309 versions, only to abandon them when the Ta-152 project proved superior to the RLM; then there was just jet engines and the Me262, which offered far better performance for what was needed, bomber killing, than any piston fighter upgrade.
The Me109 was at the end of its design limits by 1943, so needed a totally new version like a 209 with a totally redesign.
Of course you forgot the K-series of the 109 too, which brought back and upgraded the qualities of the F-series compared to the G:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_109_variants#Bf_109K

 

[Civettone]

The Bf 109G/K remained competitive til the very end. It was not an easy aircraft to fly but not bad enough to stand in the way of great achievements. We have had numerous discussions about the handling of the late versions, but I still haven't found proof that it was too difficult to fly. Sure its controls froze up at maximum speed, but other than that, it was a mean killing machine able to stand up to anything the Allies threw at it until the last day of the war, and would have remained competitive for another year or two. The bad reputation came from Allied test pilots who did not know how to handle the Bf 109, or who are simply idiots (i.e., Kit Carson), or comes from the many accidents by hardly trained pilots who should never have been allowed in the cockpit.

Kris

 

[Mike Williams]

[...] Read the report of Prof. Neilinger...[...]

Hi DonL, Can you please provide the source for Prof. Neilinger's report, preferably primary?

Thanks.

 

[drgondog]

The Bf 109F-4 was better or equal to the Spitfire V
The FW 190A outclassed the Spitfire V at 1942
A Fw 187 with two DB 601A1 would have outclassed a Spitfire MK II and V at Speed, dive, range and arnament. With two DB 601F (1350PS), it would had outclassed the Spitfire IX from speed, dive, range and arnament.

DonL - why so sure the Fw 187 could out dive a Spit IX? What distinction about the wing and associated onset compressibility delay would have made this possible?

don't see the airfoil but wonder what the T/C ratio was as well as the behavior of a substantial part of the wing immersed in prop vortex..

 

[tyrodtom]

Why more complex?

Every german a/c from Bf 109, Bf 110, FW 190, Ju 88 and Fw 187 was controlled to a single handled power stick.
There were no issues with fuel mixes or prop pitches (it was automatic handled from the a/c)
From all after action reports to FW a/c's (this incuded the FW 187 at it's sorties at Norway and Denmark), FW a/c's were much easier to handle at high speeds compare to Messerschmitt a/c's. The stick controls were easy to handle even at 550km/h and above.

I've looked at several pictures of Bf110 and Ju88 cockpits, maybe i'm looking at older versions, but I only see the usual twin engine grouping of dual controls for the engines, pitch, mixture , ect., no single power lever.
One comment on the Ju88 cockpit, not all that many gauges for a twin, but one of the most spead out instrument panels i've seen, you'd be in danger of giving yourself vertigo just from swiveling your head to scan them.

 

[VBF-13]

Well said, the 109F was the pinnacle of the design without significant aerodynamic and structural changes. They desperately needed to do a major upgrade (like the Typhoon to Tempest conversion, or the 190A to Dora).

The single biggest problem was that it was so small. it was the smallest and lightest of the fighters in the ETO.

While this was a significant advantage in 39/40/41/part of 42, after that the airframe was too small for the extra power and weapons needed to be competitive.

Plus, it made what was a moderately difficult plane for a beginner to fly and fight effectively, into something more difficult. And given the attrition the Luftwaffe was suffering it needed something that was far far easier for the newbies to be able to utilise more effectively.

[..] Willy Messerschmitt and his team really did a great job designing it, but there are some parallels with the Zero in that there were compromises in the design that ultimately limited it. And, for some unknown reason (at least to me), they were unwilling to make a sensible upgrade.

I'm a lost ball in the tall weeds, but this much I do get. Germany was in much the same spot with its air program and its aircraft as Japan, and at around the same time, and for much the same reasons. And it was facing an opponent who, by stark contrast, was over-designing and over-building. Let me just add, too, we refer to this as the "ETO." That's bullshit. This war, once it really got going, was on Germany's home turf. For that reason, in itself, it had it even harder than Japan.

 

[tomo pauk]

I'm a lost ball in the tall weeds, but this much I do get. Germany was in much the same spot with its air program and its aircraft as Japan, and at around the same time, and for much the same reasons. And it was facing an opponent who, by stark contrast, was over-designing and over-building. Let me just add, too, we refer to this as the "ETO." That's bullshit. This war, once it really got going, was on Germany's home turf. For that reason, in itself, it had it even harder than Japan.

Re. bolded part: what year do you have in mind, when the war 'really got going'?