A superior German fighter

[altsym]

Let me just add, too, we refer to this as the "ETO." That's bullshit. This war, once it really got going, was on Germany's home turf. For that reason, in itself, it had it even harder than Japan.

German Regular Army the Luftwaffe were still all over Europe when Germany surrendered.

@ DonL; As far for the 109 being 'dead meat', hardly. It was a deadly foe right until the end.

 

[davebender]

IMO Fw-187 would have been best fighter aircraft in the world during 1940 bar none. And it was production ready.

However the original question concerned getting a jet into combat during BoB.

 

[altsym]

Oh yah lol. IIRC the 262 V1/2/3 was available during the BoB, engine availability was the problem. Somehow, Jumo would have to produce a lot more engines to make the 262 viable. Flak gets everything sooner or later. How many hours were those early jet engines good for?

 

[Milosh]

Oh yah lol. IIRC the 262 V1/2/3 was available during the BoB, engine availability was the problem. Somehow, Jumo would have to produce a lot more engines to make the 262 viable. Flak gets everything sooner or later. How many hours were those early jet engines good for?

The flight flight of the Me262V1 was on 18 April 1941. BoB had been over for a few months.

 

[Civettone]

You could build twice as many Bf 109Es with the limited amount of DB 601s available. That means you go to war with only half the fighter force. I think I would stick with the Bf 109E ... which at the time was the best fighter plane in the world.

Of course Dave, I know you are going to say that they should have given full priority to a massive DB 601 or even 603 production schedule ...

Kris

 

[davebender]

You don't need a massive effort. Just stick to original DB601 engine production plan before funding was cut from RM 50 million to RM 20 million. That should give you twice as many DB601 engines during 1939.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

You could build twice as many Bf 109Es with the limited amount of DB 601s available. That means you go to war with only half the fighter force. I think I would stick with the Bf 109E ... which at the time was the best fighter plane in the world.

Of course Dave, I know you are going to say that they should have given full priority to a massive DB 601 or even 603 production schedule ...

Kris

We may have disagreed on many things, but this is not one of them.

 

[Civettone]

I remember you saying that the funding went to the Jumo 211 plants instead. Cutting their funds would probably mean less bombers. As much as I like the Fw 187, I find it difficult to support its production. Germany needed large numbers of aircraft. And for that reason, they were right to stick to what was in production and which was at least as good as anything the Allies had.


Kris

 

[Milosh]

How many engines had to be produced to support the number of a/c in service? ie how many spares?

 

[VBF-13]

Re. bolded part: what year do you have in mind, when the war 'really got going'?

Well, when did it start? It started well-before the Allies got in there on the ground. It started with the bombing missions. Once those got going, the fight was in Germany's corner. And it didn't let up.

EDIT...

German Regular Army the Luftwaffe were still all over Europe when Germany surrendered.

Definitely. But let's not neglect the significance of Germany in itself being a front. That only compounded its inability to lick its wounds. The more those bombing missions escalated, the more so.

 

[GregP]

I see DonL is going to design a new twin from the Fw 187, with heavier engines, never built, and state that it would not be outclassed by anything, despite that fact that, except for the Mosquito and P-38, there were very few successful day twin fighters. I'd say there might be some interesting development ahead.

And the P-38 was faster than the proposed Fw 187 might have been with the proposed DB 601's. The P-38 and some Mosquitoes were at least over 400 mph. The DB engined FW 187 would not have been by a good margin, if you look at power increase alone. Add some frontal area increase and it get slower. You could not substitute a 34% heavier engine with more power without encountering a bigger radiator and the atendant cooling drag increase, not to mention the heavier engine mounts and attendant strengthening of the airframe to support the heavier engines at the g-limit. My estimate with standa aedodynamic equations would have it in the 380 - 385 mph range with the DB 601's. Good, probably. But the best? Maybe.

Might have been a pretty good fighter, but better than one of the premier single seaters of all times, I strongly would like to see that before accepting it at face value.

Still, the concept has merit and I always wondered why the Germans didn't develop it, especially after the Bf 110 was shown to be a good aircraft but lacking when it came to day combat with single-engine fighters in the Battle of Britain. The DB Fw 187 might have been a good one, but I doubt the development would have been completely without some challenges. Maybe they could have adapted the Bf 110 engine cowling assemblies almost piece for piece, with the attendant strengthening.

The result might have given the real Mosquito and P-38 a run for their money. But some sort of design analysis would need to be forthcoming to accept the claims.

Given the political situation at the time, I think it more likely that the existing real line of aircraft might have been produced a bit sooner in greater numbers if they had to rely on just aircraft. The same could be said of the British and Americans.

This one is an interesting "what if," and DonL could be right. Of course, the Allies could come up with some new things, too.

Lastly development might have gone along different lines than it really did, with completely new airframes and engines.

In that case, what would be flying NOW? Some interesting speculations DonL. Got any drawings of your proposed planes? Not that it is necessary, but cool planes are always welcome.

 

[Civettone]

What exactly were Messerschmitt's performance projections for the DB 600 powered Fw 187? 560 kmh?

I am not sure if it would be possible to install the DB 601 without further modifications. But the Bf 110 went from Jumo 210 to DB 605 ...
Kris

 

[wiking85]

I see DonL is going to design a new twin from the Fw 187, with heavier engines, never built, and state that it would not be outclassed by anything, despite that fact that, except for the Mosquito and P-38, there were very few successful day twin fighters. I'd say there might be some interesting development ahead.

And the P-38 was faster than the proposed Fw 187 might have been with the proposed DB 601's. It was at least over 400 mph. The DB engined FW 187 would not have been by a good margin. You could not substitute a 34% heavier engine with more power without encountering a bigger radiator and the atendant cooling drag increase, not to mention the heavier engine mounts and attendant strengthening of the airframe to support the heavier engines at the g-limit. My estimate with standa aedodynamic equations would have it in the 380 - 385 mkph range with the DB 601's. Good, but the best? Maybe.

Might have been a pretty good fighter, but better than one of the premier single seaters of all times, I strongly would like to see that before accepting it at face value.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super...performance_and_armament#Early_Merlin_engines
Well, the Mark II Spitfire was the model the Fw187 would have faced in the BoB. It had a top speed of just under 360mph and had less than half the internal fuel of the Fw187. Not only that, but it was slower in a dive or climb, thanks to the DB601's fuel injection system. Beyond that most fighters shot down in the BoB (~80%) didn't see the enemy coming, so much was based on who was superior in boom-and-zoom, rather than the Spitfire's favored turn-and-burn tactics. So the Fw187 would have a serious advantage over the Spitfire, so long as its not taken by surprise or let's itself get sucked into a turn-and-burn battle; considering that its very likely only the best pilots would be allowed for fly such an aircraft and the quality of German fighter pilots relative to the RAF ones during the BoB, then its more than likely that the extra speed, climb, dive, and range capabilities of the Fw187 over the Spitfire (not yet cannon-armed), would be pretty hard to overcome by the RAF fighter units, especially given that they were still using the Vick formation as of August 1940.

 

[altsym]

The flight flight of the Me262V1 was on 18 April 1941. BoB had been over for a few months.

Thanks for the correction

 

[Aozora]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super...performance_and_armament#Early_Merlin_engines
Well, the Mark II Spitfire was the model the Fw187 would have faced in the BoB. It had a top speed of just under 360mph and had less than half the internal fuel of the Fw187. Not only that, but it was slower in a dive or climb, thanks to the DB601's fuel injection system.

I would really like to see the figures that will convincingly show that the Fw-187 would have done all of these things, particularly the climbing and diving: I have Hermann and Petrick's book on the Fw 187 and all I see are lots of projected performance figures for planned Fw 187 derivatives when fitted with various engine types, including the DB605. There is no mention anywhere of the confirmed or projected diving speeds so I cannot see how such claims can be confirmed.

Fw 187 V4 rate of climb = 12.1 m/sec = 2,381 ft/min, gross weight = 4,900 kg: projected Fw 187 with DB605 = 13 m/sec = 2,559 ft/min, gross weight = 8,200 kg.

There was only one Fw 187, the V5, tested with DB601s using evaporative cooling; the only performance figure quoted is 635 km/h (394 mph) "at low altitude", with the engines developing 1,350 hp - there is no indication whether this was with armament or at full loaded weight. It is doubtful whether the RLM would have continued with evaporative cooled DB601s because the system was far too vulnerable to battle damage, not to mention the nightmares of maintenance at a unit level, and supply issues involved in manufacturing and issuing yet another version of the DB601 when there were already problems involved in manufacturing and supplying the standard models. Another problem was that supplies of C3 96 Octane fuel were always problematic and unreliable

Beyond that most fighters shot down in the BoB (~80%) didn't see the enemy coming, so much was based on who was superior in boom-and-zoom, rather than the Spitfire's favored turn-and-burn tactics. So the Fw187 would have a serious advantage over the Spitfire, so long as its not taken by surprise or let's itself get sucked into a turn-and-burn battle; considering that its very likely only the best pilots would be allowed for fly such an aircraft

All this means is that the Spitfire would be at a disadvantage if surprised by an Fw 187, which is meaningless really because any fighter caught by surprise is at a disadvantage. "considering that its very likely only the best pilots would be allowed for fly such an aircraft" evidence for this please - chances are had the Fw 187 been built in quantity it would have been issued to Geschwader, just like any other aircraft type, and not individual pilots or "elite" units.

 

[bob44]

IMO Fw-187 would have been best fighter aircraft in the world during 1940 bar none. And it was production ready.

However the original question concerned getting a jet into combat during BoB.

Not necessarily during the BOB. But putting some serious effort into a jet fighter early in the war.

Also brings up a question. Did Germany have any intelligence on the Spitfire? Or did they just dismiss it. Thinking the 109 is better?

 

[DonL]

I would really like to see the figures that will convincingly show that the Fw-187 would have done all of these things, particularly the climbing and diving: I have Hermann and Petrick's book on the Fw 187 and all I see are lots of projected performance figures for planned Fw 187 derivatives when fitted with various engine types, including the DB605. There is no mention anywhere of the confirmed or projected diving speeds so I cannot see how such claims can be confirmed.

Fw 187 V4 rate of climb = 12.1 m/sec = 2,381 ft/min, gross weight = 4,900 kg: projected Fw 187 with DB605 = 13 m/sec = 2,559 ft/min, gross weight = 8,200 kg.
There was only one Fw 187, the V5, tested with DB601s using evaporative cooling; the only performance figure quoted is 635 km/h (394 mph) "at low altitude", with the engines developing 1,350 hp - there is no indication whether this was with armament or at full loaded weight. It is doubtful whether the RLM would have continued with evaporative cooled DB601s because the system was far too vulnerable to battle damage, not to mention the nightmares of maintenance at a unit level, and supply issues involved in manufacturing and issuing yet another version of the DB601 when there were already problems involved in manufacturing and supplying the standard models. Another problem was that supplies of C3 96 Octane fuel were always problematic and unreliable.

If you have this book and has read it accurate (and the book is accurate translated) I can't understand your claims here, because they are simply wrong!

1. The climb rate you are claiming is with a 1000kg Bomb at external racks, without the 1000kg Bomb it was 18,0m/s; Page 135
2. The FW 187 V5 didn't receive DB 601 H engines, it was flying with the DB 601 V40 + V42 with 1100PS; Page 78
3. The FW 187 V5 didn't flew with an evaporative cooling (Oberflächenverdampfungskühlung), it flew with a Dampfheißkühlung. This system is fundemental different to the He 100 evaporative cooling, where water was circulating through the wings. The system of the FW 187 was an experimental high pressure cooling with very smal convential radiators (no water at the wings)and every later developed engine from DB 605, Jumo 213 and DB 603 received a steam seperator for high pressure cooling. Page 73-78
4. Look at page 81/82 you can see the radiators under the engine.
5. Also there are several reports from pilots about the flight performance of the FW 187 at Rechlin (Page 37) and at Page 95 against a Me 110 with DB 601 engines at Denmark.

I see DonL is going to design a new twin from the Fw 187, with heavier engines, never built, and state that it would not be outclassed by anything, despite that fact that, except for the Mosquito and P-38, there were very few successful day twin fighters. I'd say there might be some interesting development ahead.

I haven't anything designed Mr. GregP the FW 187 was built with DB 601 engines ( FW 187 V5) and the FW 187 was constructed from the scratch to the DB engines, because this was the advertisement of the RLM
The FW 187 V5 flew from 1939 till 1942 and FW was able to receive countless of flight data's and the FW 187 V5 had not a single problem with the g-limit

And the P-38 was faster than the proposed Fw 187 might have been with the proposed DB 601's. The P-38 and some Mosquitoes were at least over 400 mph. The DB engined FW 187 would not have been by a good margin, if you look at power increase alone. Add some frontal area increase and it get slower. You could not substitute a 34% heavier engine with more power without encountering a bigger radiator and the atendant cooling drag increase, not to mention the heavier engine mounts and attendant strengthening of the airframe to support the heavier engines at the g-limit. My estimate with standa aedodynamic equations would have it in the 380 - 385 mph range with the DB 601's. Good, probably. But the best? Maybe.

Mr. Greg P you has realy no clue about what you are writing!

1. The FW 187 was designed to support the heavier engines from the beginning, no modifications are necessary.
2, The change from Jumo 210 engies to DB 601 engines had reduced the drag of the ME 110 significant through much better radiators and resulted in a speed increase of 85km/h with bigger engines.. The FW 187 A0 flew the same radiotors and engines as the Bf 110 B with Jumo 210 engines.
So what do you think would be the speed increase of the FW 187 with the change to the DB 601 engines, if the Bf 110 could increase it's speed about 85 km/h and the FW 187 had the better aerodynamic?

To show you the aerodynamic category of the FW 187 from hard clocked facts/datas, we can compare the FW 187 V1 and the FW 187 V4.


FW 187 V1 single seater

loaded weight: 3.850 kg
Wingspan: 30,00 m²
Wing loading: 128,33 kg/m²
engines: Jumo 210D 2x680 PS
Top speedt 501 kmh at 3.000 m
climb: 17,5 m/s

FW 187 V4 two seater

loaded weight: 4.900 kg
Wingspan: 30,20 m²
Wing loading:165,56 kg/m²
engines: Jumo 210G 2x730 PS
Top speedt 545 kmh at 4.600 m
climb: 12,5 m/s

The main difference were the engines, because the 210G had a two speed supercharger, fuel injection and was the first Jumo 210 with boost effect.
As you can see the FW 187 V4 was 1000kg heavier then the Fw 187 V1, but could increase it's top speed through the better supercharger and boost effect from 500 to 540 km/h.

This is the official specification from FW engineers of the FW 187 with DB 605 engines:

Official specification:

Fw 187 - destroyer/nightfighter from 1942

Wingspan: 15,3
Wing area: 30 qm
Length: 12,45
crew: 2 (200 kg)
empty weight: 5600 kg
take off weight: 8200 kg (with 1 x 1000 kg Bombe)
engine: DB 605
estimated range with internal fuel: 1200 km
estimated range with internal fuel and 900 Liter drop tank: 2100km

Performance:
682 kmh at 7.000m altitude (at 6.620 kg), 658 kmh at 7.000 m with 1000 kg bomb capacity at external racks
547 kmh (at 6.620 kg)at SL
climb rate at SL: 13,0 m/s at 8.200kg (with 1000kg bomg capacity) , 18,0 m/s bei 6.620 kg
climb: 6000m in 5,7 Minuten (with 6.620 kg),
armament:
4 x 151 / 20 with 250 bullets each - fixed to the front
2 x 131 with 450 bullets each - as "Schräge Musik"
1 x MG 81 with 750 bullets - flexible to the back
in summaryt: weapons 392 kg; munition 306 kg)
loading:
maximal 2.000 kg
1 x 1000 kg + 2 x 500 kg or
1 x 1000 kg + 4 x 250 kg or
10 x 50 kg bzw. 10 x AB 23 / 24

With what arguments do you claim that this datas are wrong and a Moussie and a P38 would be faster?
With what arguments do you claim that FW engineers, educated piston engine aircraft engineers are wrong with their official specification, with countless datas of testflights of the FW 187 A0 and FW 187 V5 with DB 601 engines.
From engineers that presented official specifications for the FW 190 A0- A9, FW 190-D9-13, Ta 152 H, FW 200 etc and all this official specification were reached in real-life from production a/c's.

Where is your argument that engineers who worked about 5 years with this a/c can't do a proper official specification but you know it better?
Are you a piston engine aircraft engineer?

 

[wiking85]

I would really like to see the figures that will convincingly show that the Fw-187 would have done all of these things, particularly the climbing and diving: I have Hermann and Petrick's book on the Fw 187 and all I see are lots of projected performance figures for planned Fw 187 derivatives when fitted with various engine types, including the DB605. There is no mention anywhere of the confirmed or projected diving speeds so I cannot see how such claims can be confirmed.

Fw 187 V4 rate of climb = 12.1 m/sec = 2,381 ft/min, gross weight = 4,900 kg: projected Fw 187 with DB605 = 13 m/sec = 2,559 ft/min, gross weight = 8,200 kg.

There was only one Fw 187, the V5, tested with DB601s using evaporative cooling; the only performance figure quoted is 635 km/h (394 mph) "at low altitude", with the engines developing 1,350 hp - there is no indication whether this was with armament or at full loaded weight. It is doubtful whether the RLM would have continued with evaporative cooled DB601s because the system was far too vulnerable to battle damage, not to mention the nightmares of maintenance at a unit level, and supply issues involved in manufacturing and issuing yet another version of the DB601 when there were already problems involved in manufacturing and supplying the standard models. Another problem was that supplies of C3 96 Octane fuel were always problematic and unreliable

Unfortunately its a hypothetical aircraft, so there is no such thing as convincing evidence if you're demanding a working example's data as proof.
Confirmation is impossible, but given the performance of the various prototypes it seems that the clean lines of the aircraft, even without the surface evaporative cooling, gave it its much higher speed in level flight than would be expected from such an aircraft. Also the issue of its superior dive speed has more to do with the DB engines than just its aerodynamics, as the early Merlins that powered the Mark II Spitfires had performance issues when switching into a dive, which was noted by Stephen Bungay in his book on the BoB 'Most Dangerous Enemy'. Regardless of whatever you think about the potential impact or performance of the aircraft, it would have been superior in performance to the Bf110.

All this means is that the Spitfire would be at a disadvantage if surprised by an Fw 187, which is meaningless really because any fighter caught by surprise is at a disadvantage. "considering that its very likely only the best pilots would be allowed for fly such an aircraft" evidence for this please - chances are had the Fw 187 been built in quantity it would have been issued to Geschwader, just like any other aircraft type, and not individual pilots or "elite" units.

I may have been supposing to much by making that comment, as I'm assuming that this aircraft would replace the Bf110, which was supposedly only for elite units, which would mean that as its replacement in production, it would take the place as the 'elite' aircraft.

 

[wiking85]

Sorry, double post.

 

[Marcel]

The Bf 109F-4 was better or equal to the Spitfire V
The FW 190A outclassed the Spitfire V at 1942
A Fw 187 with two DB 601A1 would have outclassed a Spitfire MK II and V at Speed, dive, range and arnament. With two DB 601F (1350PS), it would had outclassed the Spitfire IX from speed, dive, range and arnament.

I read a book about Bader in which describes clearly that the Bf109F was definitely not superior to the Mk.V. The FW190A on the other hand clearly was.