"All of Vlad's forces and all of Vlad's men, are out to put Humpty together again." (7 Viewers)

[buffnut453]

Negotiations between Ukraine and Russia are supposed to commence again today. According to Sergei Lavrov, Russia's Foreign Minister, Russia's negotiating position comprises:

• Ukraine must"demilitarise" and "deNazify"
• Crimea is recognised by Kyiv as part of Russia
• The breakaway regions in eastern Ukraine (Donetsk People's Republic and Luhansk People's Republic) are formally recognised

I think Ukraine might accept the second and third bullets, albeit with a lot of heartache. I don't see how Ukraine could accept a demand to "demilitarise"...there's no way ANY sovereign nation would accept such an abdication of self-defence. Frankly, I'm not even sure what "deNazify" means nor how it would be measured. I see a real risk that this is simply giving a mandate for Russia (i.e. FSB) to go after any individuals that Russia doesn't like....which, clearly, may have absolutely nothing to do with any nazi ideologies.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Negotiations between Ukraine and Russia are supposed to commence again today. According to Sergei Lavrov, Russia's Foreign Minister, Russia's negotiating position comprises:

• Ukraine must"demilitarise" and "deNazify"
• Crimea is recognised by Kyiv as part of Russia
• The breakaway regions in eastern Ukraine (Donetsk People's Republic and Luhansk People's Republic) are formally recognised

I think Ukraine might accept the second and third bullets, albeit with a lot of heartache. I don't see how Ukraine could accept a demand to "demilitarise"...there's no way ANY sovereign nation would accept such an abdication of self-defence. Frankly, I'm not even sure what "deNazify" means nor how it would be measured. I see a real risk that this is simply giving a mandate for Russia (i.e. FSB) to go after any individuals that Russia doesn't like....which, clearly, may have absolutely nothing to do with any nazi ideologies.

It's an odd thing how everyone throws the term Nazis around. If there were true Nazis they would have murdered or enslaved every non-Aryan, including Ukrainians, Poles, Russians, etc. and Ukrainian's Jewish president would be dead long ago. Where does this idea of Nazis in Ukraine come from?

 

[Denniss]

I do not believe Ukraine would accept any point of this "compromise". They had made it clear they will never give up Crimea

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

He suggested that Russia would have come under attack had it not invaded.

The similarity to the justifications for Operation Barbarossa by NaZi apologists cannot have gone unnoticed.

 

[msxyz]

It's an odd thing how everyone throws the term Nazis around. If there were true Nazis they would have murdered or enslaved every non-Aryan, including Ukrainians, Poles, Russians, etc. and Ukrainian's Jewish president would be dead long ago. Where does this idea of Nazis in Ukraine come from?

Azov Battalion. I would take with a pinch of salt whatever information you find about them especially these days. Some claim the image there is fake but it's possible to find other ones with similar symbolism

Azov Battalion , Donbas

Nazis in Ukraine?

www.militaryimages.net

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I can tell you that, outside of the western world, most of the comments I read, regardless of the nation, are pro Russia.

How do you reconcile that with the UN vote which showed the nations of the world overwhelmingly against this crime?

What websites are you reading where most comments are pro-Russian?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

We're really missing input from the Russian side. Our view, or at least mine, is coloured by our western background. I really try to be objective, but it's hard to be that in a situation like this.

I would welcome the view of Russian civilians to better understand how they feel about the entire situation, however, I don't need to hear Putin's drivel. His input is the same thing as the galloping squirts.

 

[msxyz]

How do you reconcile that with the UN vote which showed the nations of the world overwhelmingly against this crime?

What websites are you reading where most comments are pro-Russian?

The resolution voted was quite watered down and many smaller countries vote always pro west for fear of economic repercussions.

Look at the comment section of this Indian online newspaper (it's in English so you don't need to translate) Russia Ukraine Latest News: US recalls cable saying India, UAE in 'Russia's camp': Report | India News - Times of India The article also claims that US put pressure on India's UN ambassador to vote along with the west. India, China and Pakistan abstained from the vote, which is quite interesting because these three countries don't go along very well for various reasons and yet they're in the same camp on this.

 

[EwenS]

It's an odd thing how everyone throws the term Nazis around. If there were true Nazis they would have murdered or enslaved every non-Aryan, including Ukrainians, Poles, Russians, etc. and Ukrainian's Jewish president would be dead long ago. Where does this idea of Nazis in Ukraine come from?

Perhaps because in the early days of the German invasion of the USSR in 1941, elements of the Ukrainian population saw the Germans as their liberators from the Soviet oppression of the previous 20 years. Turned out they had just swapped one oppressor for another!

But there were enough anti-Soviet recruits of Ukrainian origin (from whatever motive from genuine political support for the Nazi regime, to hatred of the Soviets, to simply try to save themselves from being worked to death) to form an SS Division

14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Galician) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The way that borders have moved over the centuries in Eastern Europe, the ethnic groups have mixed so complicating the politics of today that the likes of Putin try to exploit. We saw the same thing happen with the breakup of Yugoslavia in the 1990s. That led to "ethnic cleansing" as different ethnic groups claimed what they saw as there "homelands" with the result that we now have 7 separate states in that region.

 

[Marcel]

I would welcome the view of Russian civilians to better understand how they feel about the entire situation, however, I don't need to hear Putin's drivel. His input is the same thing as the galloping squirts.

Exactly. I meant the common man on the street (or of course a WW2 aircraft nut )

 

[Admiral Beez]

Perhaps because in the early days of the German invasion of the USSR in 1941, elements of the Ukrainian population saw the Germans as their liberators from the Soviet oppression of the previous 20 years.

Yes, my Ukrainian-Canadian wife's great uncle served in the SS. The family lore is that he was coerced, but what else is he going to say. He had the SS tattoo and all, wasn't allowed to emigrate to Canada but the US took him in. But that's history, and I firmly believe that you get no credit and no blame for the actions of those who came before you. I'm British-born, I imagine many in my history did some awful things too. That doesn't reflect on me or the British people today. So, why do people say there are Nazis in Ukraine in 2022?

 

[Escuadrilla Azul]

He says Putin's ideologies derived from never "hearing objections or criticism" from those around him and believes he's become "the victim of his own system he created".

In this I would agree very much.

If it's true that the invasion was planned during a year (which I doubt) someone have to lose his job.

How do you reconcile that with the UN vote which showed the nations of the world overwhelmingly against this crime?

What websites are you reading where most comments are pro-Russian?

One thing is the goverment and quite another the people. Even in full democracies you can have one diverting a lot from the other about the same topic.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

How do you reconcile that with the UN vote which showed the nations of the world overwhelmingly against this crime?

What websites are you reading where most comments are pro-Russian?

There is a difference between what the government and what the people think.

 

[buffnut453]

Yes, my Ukrainian-Canadian wife's great uncle served in the SS. The family lore is that he was coerced, but what else is he going to say. He had the SS tattoo and all, wasn't allowed to emigrate to Canada but the US took him in. But that's history, and I firmly believe that you get no credit and no blame for the actions of those who came before you. In British-born, I imagine many in my history did some awful things too. That doesn't reflect on me or the British people today. So, why do people say there are Nazis in Ukraine in 2022?

Well, there are people with nazi ideologies in pretty much every European nation, as well as the US, Canada and elsewhere. The Azov Battalion is one well-known example and it clearly contains some repulsive characters among its membership. Since that unit was employed in the Donbas, I'm wondering if there were some localized atrocities committed by its members, and it's those actions that have stoked Putin's ire. Again, that doesn't justify indiscriminate shelling of civilians...but, equally, units like the Azov Battalion shouldn't have any role in any Government's defensive or special forces capabilities.

The challenge is where do we draw the line between someone who's simply right-wing and someone who's a nazi? The difference may not always be clear, particularly since there's a continuum and people may move (relatively) left or right on individual topics. In particular, I fear any attempt to "de-nazify" based on Russian criteria will simply lead to anyone who disagrees with Putin being labelled as a "nazi" with no due process being followed.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

There is a difference between what the government and what the people think.

Of course. That's why I asked him to reconcile the difference. He is, after all, the one perusing those peoples' opinions.

I should hope it's obvious by now that I'm not so naive as to think that a government directly reflects the feelings of its subjects. But clearly more than three-quarters of the world's governments feel comfortable denouncing this invasion, and that includes democracies from every continent (whose people could hold that government accountable if it spoke out of turn).

So I was asking why he thinks that is. Thanks.

 

[buffnut453]

There is a difference between what the government and what the people think.

There are also differences between what people think. Some will be strongly supportive of Putin while others will vehemently disagree with him. I'm afraid trying to capture "what the Russian people think" will simply result in a broad spectrum ranging from "restore the USSR" to "remove Putin and join NATO"....and all points in between.

I also expect there'd be a standard distribution of the population between those polar opposites...with the bulk of the populace either slightly agreeing with Putin but having reservations about his approach, while others slightly disagree with him but still would like to see Russia better recognized on the world stage.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Of course. That's why I asked him to reconcile the difference. He is, after all, the one perusing those peoples' opinions.

I should hope it's obvious by now that I'm not so naive as to think that a government directly reflects the feelings of its subjects. But clearly more than three-quarters of the world's governments feel comfortable denouncing this invasion, and that includes democracies from every continent (whose people could hold that government accountable if it spoke out of turn).

So I was asking why he thinks that is. Thanks.

I don't think you are naive at all. I think you are very well spoken and level headed, I was simply adding to.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

There are also differences between what people think. Some will be strongly supportive of Putin while others will vehemently disagree with him. I'm afraid trying to capture "what the Russian people think" will simply result in a broad spectrum ranging from "restore the USSR" to "remove Putin and join NATO"....and all points in between.

I also expect there'd be a standard distribution of the population between those polar opposites...with the bulk of the populace either slightly agreeing with Putin but having reservations about his approach, while others slightly disagree with him but still would like to see Russia better recognized on the world stage.

Agreed, what you just described will be found in any country. It's no different here in the US. You have extremes on both sides of everything who are the loudest, but the vast majority probably lie somewhere in the middle of every situation/topic/decision.

 

[buffnut453]

If it's true that the invasion was planned during a year (which I doubt) someone have to lose his job.

Actually, that wouldn't surprise me at all. Having been a military planner at the joint level, I have some concept for what it takes to pull off an operation of this scale. There are a tremendous number of moving pieces and it could easily take a year to do that.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

And its those extremes on either side why we had to ban political discussion. I'm very encouraged by this thread, and I thank everyone for how well it has gone (of course the fact that we all agree on this topic helps…).