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both. The P-51B, with the -3, or -7 engine and at 60" or 67" of boost, except at a few discrete altitudes below 10k, was faster and climbed better than the Fw-190A-5 from SL to 30k+, and while the P-51B with -3 engine did not climb as well as the Bf-109G, the P-51B with a -7 engine and 67" boost, was roughly equal to the Bf-109G. All variations of the P-51B was significantly faster than the Bf-109G, averaging 20 mph faster to 25k where it was 30 to 40 mph faster at and above. These numbers represented the typical interceptors the Germans could throw up. And this was with 180 gallons of gas in the P-51 versus 105 gallons in the Bf-109.
I can't, but I believe there are those on this site that will take issue with the concept that the P-51 always fought from a position of superior numbers over Germany. Is the number 3,382 all fighters including those that cannot make Germany. How many were P-51s?
I have already explained that the Germans also had the Bf109G/AS
A chart on Bf109 ASM is available from Kurfurst .Check combat power.
As for the rest of your argument let me repeat : twice the number of German aircraft (even the standard Bf and Fw ) would shut down the Bomber Offensive permanently regardless of the performance of the P-51.Oh and you're talking about 5 min power again.
And the P-51 did a very good job on many of these, including, uniquely range.How many times do you have to mention that the P-51 was superior in max level speed? We get it , i don't think there was anyone here that disagreed with you.Would that difference be a war winner? No ,if that was true there should be no LW after the introduction of that aircraft. Many variables are important not just one.
?? And if they had more and better bombers they may have won the BOB. This statement means nothing.I'll say it again more aircraft (even the ''inferior'' Bf and Fw) would have shut down Bomber Offensive.
And what made this aircraft so formidable? Speed!Only aircraft that could win a war by its own was Me-262 ( in quantity).
Going back to the original thread then I cannot see anything that the Germans had that would have made a significant difference to the allied airframes. I am not a fan of the 0.5 M2 that is no secret but it was fine for what it had to combat, ie single seat fighters and largely pre war / or fragile medium bombers. So giving the USAAF more effective weapons wouldn't make a noticable difference.
We tend to get hung up on fighters but the only difference I would like is the german 13mm replacing the 0.303 in British bomber turrets. The 0.5 M2 was just so much bigger, fitting them in without a significant increase in weight was difficult. Getting hit by a quad 13mm would hurt anything.
Now a thread on allied equipment in Axis airframes would be far more complicated.
And the P-51 did a very good job on many of these, including, uniquely range.
?? And if they had more and better bombers they may have won the BOB. This statement means nothing.
And what made this aircraft so formidable? Speed!
There actually was something extremely valuable the Germans "had" that made the airframe of the P-51 better than anything the genius of Willie Messerschmitt put into any version of the Bf109. Does anyone on this forum know what it was?
Not me
A chart on Bf109 ASM is available from Kurfurst .Check combat power.As for the rest of your argument let me repeat : twice the number of German aircraft (even the standard Bf and Fw ) would shut down the Bomber Offensive permanently regardless of the performance of the P-51.Oh and you're talking about 5 min power again.
Based on what assumptions? Any fact based observations you care to pose?
Luftflotte Reich had from 8X (Jan 1944) to 2X (April 1944) available S/E fighters to Mustangs/Lightnings over Germany until approximately May 1944. Allied airpower advantage was huge but stopped at German border due to range limits.
Between mid April and end of May the 8th AF Mustang Groups had converted 4 more P-47 groups to P-51s achieveing a growth from 4th, 355th, 357th FG (~45 to 50 'effectives per group) to 4th (end of Feb), 339th(may), 352nd (mid april), 355th (march), 357th (mid feb), 359th (may) and 361st (mid may) FG - raising total escort capacity to ~350 plus three lightning groups to escort a 100 mile bomber stream of 800-1200 effective B-17/B-24s against 450-500 effective Fw 190 and Me 109 based throughout Germany. That does not include JG2 and JG 26 in Luftflotte 3 that were busy fighting P-47/Spits over Holland and France and Belgium.
The LW put very large numbers of 109s and 190s in the air in November 1944 attaining local air superiority of as much as 5X1 for example over Misburg on November 26, 1944 and was crucified with disappointing effect to the B-24 Task Force (21) considering the overwhelming number of fighters (250+) to the escort (355th FG/2SF ~40 Mustangs). It is also true that other Mustang groups converged on the area and contributed heavily to the local LW losses in that area (50+ to three 339th FG P-51losses).
The simple fact is that the Mustang was a problem the LW failed to solve until the Me 262 and it was a failure comparatively speaking considering the performance and firepower advatage.
The LW never stopped the bomber offensive when they had complete air superiority over Germany but did inflict severe losses until the bombers got several Mustang groups into central Germany... Except on 6 march, 29 April the loss rates of 8th BC never again went over 7% and rarely over 3% thereafter - with most post May 1944 loses going to flak
As to the 5min power vs Mil Power the airspeed difference isn't that significant and still above both the 109G and Fw 190A-6,7 and 8 by substantial margins in comparable power settings
My guess is the Meredith effect however it wasn't something that was unique to the Me109 or the P51, first being discovered before the war by Fredrick Meredith at the RAE in the UK. The theory was used by the UK, USA, Germany, Russia and USA in their designs during the war.drgondog,
You appear to be very knowledgeable about the Mustang. Would you happen to know the answer to the question I asked?
"There actually was something extremely valuable the Germans "had" that made the airframe of the P-51 better than anything the genius of Willie Messerschmitt put into any version of the Bf109. Does anyone on this forum know what it was?"
My guess is the Meredith effect however it wasn't something that was unique to the Me109 or the P51, first being discovered before the war by Fredrick Meredith at the RAE in the UK. The theory was used by the UK, USA, Germany, Russia and USA in their designs during the war.
Do I guess right?
drgondog,
You appear to be very knowledgeable about the Mustang. Would you happen to know the answer to the question I asked?