ALLIED HIGH ALTITUDE PLAYOFFS - Mustang vs. Thunderbolt

[DAVIDICUS]

On the"Fighter vs. Interceptor" and "P-51's vs. Me-109's and Fw-190's" threads, there have been a number of comments to the effect that the P-47D hasn't been given a fair historical hearing as a result of the numerical superiority of the P-51D which has given the impression that the Mustang, as a dogfighter, reigned supreme in the skies of the ETO.

So how would the P-51D stack up against a later model P-47D (paddle blade and water injection)?

Specifically, how would the Mustang fare against the Thunderbolt at higher altitudes of say, 25,000 to 37,500 feet?

 

[lesofprimus]

I think the -47 was a better airframe than the -51... All Versions and Variants...

 

[Soren]

They were very similar in maneuverability, while the P-51 might have had a very small advantage in turning, but not at high speed.

All in all, I would rate the P-47 as the superior machine.

 

[DAVIDICUS]

Below is the general consensus of data regarding both aircraft per several web sites I have visited. That being said, I will be the first to point out that the sheer weight of consistent data appearing in multiple places constitutes no verification of accuracy. (I determined this when the general consensus of data for the P-47M and "N" models found in most books and web sites turned out to be inconsitent with primary source data published by Republioc Aviation itself.)

If my data below appears to be incorrect, please do not hesitate to let us all know.


P-51D

H.P. - 1,720

Wing Area - 233sqft

Top Speed - 437mph

Loaded Weight - 9,449lbs

Rate of Climb - 3,478fpm

Armament - Six .50 cal M2 machine guns


P-47D

H.P. - 2,530

Wing Area - 300sqft

Top Speed - 433mph

Loaded Weight - 14,600lbs

Rate of Climb - 3,120fpm

Armament - Eight .50 cal M2 machine guns

 

[DAVIDICUS]

Does anyone know how much horsepower the Mustang's engine develops at high altitudes of 32,000ft or more? I assume that the Thunderbolt's is the same 2,530hp all the way up to at least 32,000ft. (The "M" and "N" models retain literally 100% of their 2,800 horsepower all the way up to 32,000ft) After 32,000ft, I don't know what happens.

 

[plan_D]

This isn't my attempt on correction, more an attempt to get clarification of the P-51s armament. I have read in several places that the Mustang actually had two M2 .50 cal and four "Browning .50 cal" which I assume means M1 .50 cal.

Has anyone else read that anywhere? I still always say it had six M2s but still, I'm not going to discount the fact that I've read it only had two M2s while the rest were M1s.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Check out this site:

http://www.spitfireart.com/merlin_engines.html

If anyone has a POH it might have altitude performance charts.

 

[DAVIDICUS]

I have never heard of an M1 .50 cal. machine gun. There are cartridges referred to as M1 however.

See: http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/mg/50_ammo.html

Could it have been a misprint? I have always understood that the M2 was the standard .50 cal gun on all U.S. fighters throughout the war. The M3 may have been used late in the war in the PTO in P-47N's although I have never seen any direct reference that that was the case.

FLYBOYJ, I have found a Griffon horsepower chart. While not the same engine, I think it would be similar to the extent that it shows a sharp drop off of horsepower as the altitude increases.

From: http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit14pt.html

 

[plan_D]

It didn't actually say M1, it said "four Browning .50 cal and two M2 .50 cal". I assume it was refering to M1 because the U.S marking system is M1 - M2 - M3 etc. etc. The A being subvariants...

 

[FLYBOYJ]

That chart should give you an idea. The critical altitude is were everything drops off real fast.

 

[DAVIDICUS]

Plad_D said, " ...I've read it only had two M2s while the rest were M1s."

I misunderstood that you meant that you had read that the rest were M1's.

 

[DAVIDICUS]

FLYBOYJ,

It would appear then that at higher altitudes of 20-25,000ft on up, the Mustang's engine would start getting, shall we say, lightheaded.

At some altitude (whatever that may be), I suspect that the Thunderbolt was every bit the equal if not superior to the Mustang in terms of dogfighting ability.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

FLYBOYJ,

It would appear then that at higher altitudes of 20-25,000ft on up, the Mustang's engine would start getting, shall we say, lightheaded.

At some altitude (whatever that may be), I suspect that the Thunderbolt was every bit the equal if not superior to the Mustang in terms of dogfighting ability.

Very well so - a radial engine performed way better at altitude with supercharging and did not have a great power drop-off at critical altitude.

 

[plan_D]

I also wrote "I have read in several places that the Mustang actually had two M2 .50 cal and four "Browning .50 cal" which I assume means M1 .50 cal."

 

[DAVIDICUS]

Yes, Plan_D, you wrote both. You were indeed the one that wrote both and are thus responsible for giving rise to the resulting misunderstanding since the latter had a reasonable inference contrary to the former and upon which my response was anchored.

You said that you had read in several places that the P-51 had two M2's and four Browning .50's. You didn't say that any of those "several places" were the place where " I've read it only had two M2s while the rest were M1s." Clearly, it would be possible to read the former in several places in addition to the latter in a different place.

Think about it.

Lastly, in addition to having written both, you are also being a whiney bitch about it. This PMS thing is probably why you still don't have a boyfriend.

 

[plan_D]

How am I being whiney, DAVID? The former section of my post should still have been fresh in your lousy mind to allow it not to become too confused by the latter.

I'm not in the mood to stand down on your level to inflate your ego. Go find some small child in the street you can out-wit to get your fill.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Children Children Children both of you stop. I think he was kidding plan_D see the smiley after what he wrote. Lets be friendly now okay.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

man i wish we could pull rank on this site

 

[wmaxt]

The P-51B had 4 .50cal guns canted at an angle. I belive they were M2s. The D model had 6 .50 m2 machine guns in a verticle configuration eliminating a major source of jams.

I think the P-47 (paddle/water) had it from 30/32k on up. the P-51 was down to about 1,400hp and losing more quickly. However as the planes go lower the P-47 losses ground to the P-51.

wmaxt

 

[plan_D]

Thank you, wmaxt.