ALLIED HIGH ALTITUDE PLAYOFFS - Mustang vs. Thunderbolt

[DAVIDICUS]

Wmaxt, if I am understanding you correctly, you are saying that the Mustang's original 1,720hp is down to just 1,400hp by 30-32,000ft. I think that sounds too optimistic.

I wish we had a hp / altitude chart. You would think that they would be floating around by the dozens.

Robert Goebel flew Mustangs with the 31st Fighter Group, based at San Severo, Italy, in the MTO (Mediterranean Theater of Operations).

The P-51 had a two-stage blower in the induction system that was controlled automatically with a barometric switch. Around 17,000 feet, when the throttle had been advanced almost all the way forward just to maintain normal cruise, the blower would kick into high, the manifold pressure would jump up, and the climb could be continued to 30,000 feet. The P-51 could be taken a lot higher than that, but above 30,000 feet the power was way down and the controls had to be handled gingerly.

From: http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p51_13.html

The P-51H could develop 2,218hp at WEP at 10,200ft. By 20,000ft, it was already down to 1,900hp.

 

[DAVIDICUS]

From: http://nasaui.ited.uidaho.edu/nasaspark/safety/history/rollsroyce.htm

At 26,000 feet, the Merlin powered Mustang could produce better than 1,330hp (The maximum horsepower of the Allison)

I'm guessing (in the absence of reliable data on point) that the above indicates perhaps 1,350 to 1,400hp at 26,000ft for the Merlin.

The turbo-supercharged Pratt Whitney R-2800 was likely generating 2,530hp at 32,000ft.

 

[Flyboy15]

The P-47 was always one of the most reliable fighters flown by the allies. The P-51 is often over-rated as one of the best fighters the allies had, when in reality, it required and engine upgrade from the original version just to perform an escort duty. Also, the P-47 was capable of taking punishment from german fighters that no P-51 pilot would think of allowing.

Also the subject of horse power. Considering the greater hp, the P-47 also weighed in much heavier than the P-51, thus making lift harder to generate to an efficent level for flight. When it comes down to which was the better aircraft, it really isn't about the numbers.

Toward the end of the war the P-51 was replacing every plane the allies had. From what I understand, quite a few P-47 pilots were not to happy about this exchange of aircraft.

 

[lesofprimus]

From what I understand, quite a few P-47 pilots were not to happy about this exchange of aircraft.

This is true.... Especially the guys that were doing alot of the USAAF ground pounding.....

 

[evangilder]

I know at least one airplane mechanic who was very unhappy about it as well.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I would actually think the P-47 would be easier to work on only because it was more reliable and rugged. As a pilot I would rather fly a P-47 over a P-51 anyday just because she coudl take more of a beating than a Mustang.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Don't forget, the -51 had one more system - cooling, another thing with fliud to leak....

Round engines are heavier and dirtier but way more reliable.

 

[evangilder]

Agreed, for ground attack, radials are the way to go.

 

[DAVIDICUS]

Some of you have mentioned that many P-47 pilots were not happy about the shift to P-51's. I had never heard that before. I had actually read in one book (I don't remember the title) that when the shift occurred, they were happy as the P-51 was a much better performer.

Do you know specifically what the complaints were concerning their new mounts?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Some of you have mentioned that many P-47 pilots were not happy about the shift to P-51's. I had never heard that before. I had actually read in one book (I don't remember the title) that when the shift occurred, they were happy as the P-51 was a much better performer.

Do you know specifically what the complaints were concerning their new mounts?

Mike Alba - a pilot I knew and mentioned on other posts told me his squadron didn't want to give up their P-38s!

 

[plan_D]

If people are satisfied with what they have, generally they don't want to change. Especially if they've had that plane for a long time.

 

[Erich]

remember my comments awhile ago ? the Pioneer Mustang group in the 9th AF, the 354th fg were issued the P-51 first (December 1943) and then the unit was relieved of the Mustangs to be sent to the 8th and the 354th had to fly Jugs which they absolutely hated for escort duties and only in January/February of 45 were they again assigned the P-51 the Jug was hurriedly pushed into other 9th AF units

 

[DAVIDICUS]

Erich, no I don't recall but it is common knowledge that there was more or less a wholesale switch from P-47's to P-51's. Your post is consistent with what I had previously read which was that the the P-51 was greatly preferred over the P-47. (You mentioned the P-47 was "absolutely hated" for escort duties.

As my post above indicates, I am hearing on this thread that many P-47 pilots were unhappy with the switch to P-51's.

My question still stands. Do you know of any specific complaints by P-47 pilots concerning the switch to P-51's?

 

[Erich]

D :

My pilot interviews are with 8th AF primarily but also with 354th fg Pioneer vets and some P-47 vets that never switched their mounts of the 9th AF.

The 8th AF felt the Jug was good for it's intention ealrier in the war and that was to provide limited capabilites for escort but once inward of central Germany the Jugs performance of long range fell off. The Mustang filled the role to Prague and beyond. the 56th fg boyz of course have other opinions but had updated mounts later in the war

 

[lesofprimus]

The 2 pilots Im referring to were from the 9th AF, and felt that the punishment the -47 could handle, and its high altitude performance, were better suited to their mission profiles than the -51D... One round in the engine compartment and u were done....

I think alot of the opinions favoring the -47 are because of it ground attack and damage absorbtion abilities....

 

[Erich]

lets look at the role the 9th AF played. It's primary mission except for the 9th AF 354th was ground attack duties. only 3 units were flying the P-51 by the wars end and 1 of them the 363rd became an all important air recon unit. proof too is that the top 15 aces in the 9th AF were flying the P-51 and had the majority of kills in the bird. 2 pilots were from the P-51 equipped 10th PRG

 

[wmaxt]

David, your right about the hp of the Mustang it was down to about 700hp at 30k.

Erich, you have some valid points there.

I will stick with my 30,000ft split between the P-51/P-47 in a fighter capacity. In ground attack give me the Jug.

The plane prefference issue is big, sometimes a plane just fits and feels right, sometimes not. With the P-38s there was a huge range of acceptance of new aircraft. The 474FG refused to let theirs go and were allowed to keep them through the war. Others were happy at least at first, to go to 51s because of heating etc, many of those regetted it later based on performance. Another group was very happy to get 51s because of bad rep/dislike by commander of the P-38s. I've read less on the P-47/P-51 transitions but the hype was similar, a lot of pilots were told the P-51 was the best thing since sliced bread and wanted/happy to get it.

In the PTO 1 squadron went from P-38s to P-47s and their kill rates went way down. When they switched back they went back up. In the PTO the switch from P-38s was always resisted.

I have read that the diary of George Preddy listed them this way:
The P-38 is a wonderful flying ship.
The P-47 is an nice flying ship, later Sure getting disappointed in the Jug.
The P-51 is a good flying ship.

In the end you flew what they gave you!

wmaxt

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I dont know to me I would rather have the P-47 because as I stated up there she was rugged and reliable but she also had good performance. I also love the fact that she could get down and dirty doing the HOE hunting ground pounders. She was built for that shit, and I love her for it!

 

[Sal Monella]

I remember reading somewhere that the P-47 was better than the P-51 Mustang at altitudes over 25,000ft. It was a WWII fighter pilot who said it but I don't remember who.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Well the P-47D-22 had a max speed of 435 mph at 30000 ft, the P-47N had a max speed of 467 mph at 32500 ft. The P-51D had a max speed of 437 mph at 25000 ft. So it had a higher speed at higher alttitudes but I do not know how the 2 compared in maneuaverability at high alltitudes. Now having said that I do not know, I would go with the P-47.

Some interesting facts for the P-47:

545.575 operational sorties made by 15.683 produced aircraft.
7.067 aircraft destroyed of which 3.572 in the air
3499 aircraft lost, amongst which...
884 lost in the air for a kill/loss ratio of 4,6/1
9.000+ locomotives destroyed
86.000+ rail wagons destroyed
6.000+ armored vehicles destroyed
68.000+ motor vehicles destroyed
60.000 horse-drawn vehicles destroyed